Parenting A Spicy One #97

In this conversation, parenting coach Mary Van Geffen explains why “spicy kids” don’t respond to traditional discipline—and what actually helps instead.

If your child refuses to listen, melts down over small things, pushes back on everything, or seems emotionally intense all day long, this episode will help you understand what’s really happening beneath the behavior. We talk about emotional regulation, ADHD and PDA traits, shame cycles, demand avoidance, connection vs. control, and why some kids need a completely different parenting approach. This is a grounded, practical conversation for overwhelmed parents who are exhausted by yelling, punishment, and constant conflict—and want calmer, more connected ways to parent without losing authority.

What You’ll Learn:
• Why strong-willed and deeply feeling kids often resist traditional discipline
• How shame, punishment, and power struggles make behavior worse
• What “connection over control” actually looks like in real life
• Practical ways to reduce meltdowns, increase cooperation, and stay calm under pressure
• How to parent explosive, sensitive, ADHD, PDA, or demand-avoidant kids without walking on eggshells

This episode blends developmental psychology, neuroscience, and real-world parenting tools in a way that’s actually usable when you’re in the middle of hard moments. The focus isn’t on “perfect parenting.” It’s on understanding behavior more deeply so you can respond with clarity, confidence, and connection—even when your child is intense, reactive, or hard to reach.

If you’ve been second-guessing yourself, wondering why typical parenting advice isn’t working, or feeling stuck in daily battles with your toddler or preschooler, this channel is here to help parenting feel lighter, calmer, and more doable—one hard moment at a time.

Check out Mary Van Geffen's book: Parenting a Spicy One

Transcript

Welcome And Why Spicy Kids Matter

Jon @WholeParent 0:08

Today I am joined by Mary Van Geffen, who is a parenting coach like myself, a speaker, and author of a great new parenting book, Parenting a Spicy One, a book that takes a closer look at what it means to raise a strong-willed or deeply feeling, or it's actually both a strong-willed and deeply feeling kid. Her work brings together lived experience, emotional insights, and practical tools in a way that challenges how we typically think about discipline, connections, and what kids actually need from us. You might know her from the Moms of Spicy Ones community, where she has helped thousands of parents to navigate the intensity, exhaustion, and honestly the loneliness that can come with raising kids who do not respond to the typical approaches of parenting. But this conversation is really about her latest work, which is again that book, Parenting a Spicy One, and what it reveals about the deeper shifts that parents have to make when control just doesn't work and somebody else and something else has to take place. I'm really excited about this conversation. Mary, thank you so much for being on the whole parent podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

Oh, I'm so glad to be here. And shout out to your wife. That was very well written.

Jon @WholeParent 1:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She she does help me write the intros and do all of the things, so I love it. Um, Mary, you know, I really resonate with a lot of your work because some of my most popular work in the parenting space has been around parenting kids who some people call them explosive, some people call them deeply feeling, some people want to slap diagnoses on kids, ADHD, ODD, PDA. You talk about them as being spicy kids. So, what is, in your view, a spicy kid?

What A Spicy Kid Really Is

SPEAKER_00 1:54

I first want to say it's pretty obvious you are one. I call them spicy ones. And these are kids that have more loyalty to their own soul than to an adult agenda. And it's very different than a typical child because typical children developmentally are kind of a go-with the flow uh phenomenon. They, you know, they they follow adult leadership, there's not a lot of rebellion in them, but a spicy one is just built differently. And I like to also say that a spicy one is a child that you don't think you have the personal skill or fortitude to parent well. It's that kid that you're like, they're besting me, there's conflict all the time, or maybe I don't like them and I feel so much shame about that. When you're in that situation, you're raising a spicy one because your kid, who um, you know, research might call them challenging or at risk, might not feel that way to me. So a lot of times it's the dynamic and some unhealed wounding of our own that we bring to this relationship. And this kid is temperamentally highly intense, not very adaptable, louder, like audibly, so maybe overstimulating versus other kind of quiet kids you don't even notice are playing nicely next to you. And they are very persistent and don't give up easily when they want something, unless they're learning something for the first time and they're not immediately awesome at it, then they want to quit. But they're also just not um, well, they're highly perceptive. And it's I've been on a whole journey with this because I used to call myself highly sensitive, loved all that work, but now I think it might be just a veiled name for autism. Um, and I am autistic and ADHD, which has helped me hyper focus on these strong-willed, fierce kids that grow up to be the podcast um leaders and the writers and the world changers and the activists and the entrepreneurs and the artists, but damn, they are hard to parent, especially when you care how you look to other people. And so I'm just kind of on this journey to to make people know that a good parent may have a defiant child, and that's okay.

Autonomy Needs Versus “Defiance”

Jon @WholeParent 4:15

I think a lot of parents, at least from what I've heard and what I've experienced, feel like they're failing when the usual parenting advice just kind of makes things worse. Where do you think people are misunderstanding about kids who just kind of seem impossible to steer or who seem too intense or too explosive, or as you said, they give up easily when they're faced with new things? Like what what is what is the thing that the parents are misunderstanding about that child?

SPEAKER_00 4:50

I think how they're motivated. So this child isn't looking so I mean, every human wants belonging and their basic needs met and all that, but this child has a lot of power needs and not power needs in like villain pre-story, like uh this is or origin story. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about like impact. I am a spicy one. I raised a spicy one and a mild child, so I saw the difference. And I don't want to talk to someone unless at some point in the conversation that they say, oh my gosh, yeah, and they light up and they have a reaction to what I'm saying that I've somehow impacted them. It's probably why I went into coaching, because you get to be there shepherding someone's aha moment. And this child needs to feel like they have a seat at the table and a say, and so we can fight against that and try to have hierarchical parenting, or we can be like, wow, I got myself a collaborative kid who and I need to really not everything needs to be important. And I think the other thing they misunderstand is that eventually everyone's gonna have a spicy one because every adolescent is wired to individuate and separate, and that feels like a spicy one because um the things about you that remind them of them become kind of disgusting to them, and there's just a lot of attitude, and so we're all gonna have to deal with a spicy one, might as well do the work now to be okay within ourselves when somebody else is not okay.

Jon @WholeParent 6:25

Interesting to do the work within ourselves to be okay when somebody else is not okay. What you're talking about here is kids who seem to kind of f live outside of a lot of the binaries that I think people talk about with kids, right? You have the kid who is strong-willed, or the kid who is and and they're extroverted, or they're strong-willed and they're a leader, or this or that or the other, and or they you have the kid who's like deeply sensitive. And you always think and the way that that's framed is like this is the introverted kid. But when you're talking about the spicy ones, like you're talking about kids who are simultaneously both of these things, and I feel like that combination is so easy to misread for parents. Like, why are we seeing this as only defiance in your experience? Why do parents see this sensitivity and need for power, as you just said, as defiance rather than like it just kind of part and parcel to who they are?

Letting Go Of The Control Fantasy

SPEAKER_00 7:35

I think we all have this vision of how parenting's gonna go. And for good reason. Like we, if we're great leaders, we've thought about the kind of culture we want to have in our home and where we wanna, what we want to expose our kids to. And then along comes this kid that just won't frigging go with the flow, and nothing is predictable with them, and they can sink the family road trip. Like their their emotions are somewhat contagious, and that's part of the the charisma that uh that this child will have as an adult, right? But I think it can just feel like I'm failing because I'm supposed to be the leader who says what we do. I'm supposed to impart all my values on this kid, I'm supposed to shape them, and this kid will not allow a lot of the leadership that it I look around me, and that's what a happy family looks like. And when people say you're such a good mom, it's generally because your kid is well dressed, the hygiene's on point, they're maybe they're matching you, and and you're missing out on that. And I think there's a grieving that needs to happen, especially, I don't know if you're into the Enneagram, but for like the perfectionists, the Enneagram ones who are like, this is what a successful life will look like. This is the right way to do things, you're gonna get effed up by this kid. And there's gonna be some grieving of like, wow, I need to turn inward and notice my need for control, my need for order, um, my need to be right and decide is that more important, or is it having a long-term relationship with this kid? Because these are the kids that eventually go no contact. Um, and some of them, to your point, it's not binary. Some of them, their defiance is underground. It's like, yes, yes, ma'am, I'll do that. And then they don't do it, or they're, or they just take it and take it, and then they want nothing to do with you in their 20s. So we've really got to prioritize relationship with these kids. And that's how we have the front row seat of influence. And I'm, I'm like, I can report that my 22-year-old, who was so hard for me, um, is an amazing, successful go-getter of a of a person with so many friends and an amazing second internship. Like she's just flying high. And she still will cut me down with her wit and her um the things that she will say, but I am now, I've done the work to just sort of bob and weave and and and it I don't take things so personally. And I think that's the journey ahead of anybody with a spicy one.

Jon @WholeParent 10:11

Hmm. Yeah, I think a lot of parents like hit this moment where they're there's sort of they get to this place where maybe they didn't even know that they had expectations about parenting, but they they all of a sudden are kind of faced with those expectations, and they feel like I can't parent the way that I thought I was going to be able to parent, or this doesn't this isn't going to look like what I thought it was going to look like. What does it look like to let it go of that in your experience and with a spicy one? While like being able to kind of grieve that well without letting go of hope entirely, because you've just given us a really beautiful version of of what it can look like. But how do we I think that there's like there's some grief that that occurs in order to get there? Sure.

SPEAKER_00 11:07

I think there's nothing so powerful as naming the fear and the loss that we have, and it's not doesn't sound very maternal or paternal when you say it. Um, but having someone safe to share and name like nothing is easy with this kid, I I don't like them right now, right? And we can always add the yet or the right now to kind of soften it for ourselves. But having that safe person versus I met someone this weekend who I didn't know from Adam, and they wanted to tell me how their daughter always calls them cringe, and she says I'm cringe, and I'm like, yeah, that's a 14-year-old. Like I'm not phased by that, but this person wanted to tell, they wanted to hold on to that story. And I think that's what's important is we share it, we name it, and then we allow that story to morph. Like, yes, we have some grief, but we got to move beyond it. We can't keep re um re-picking it up, right? So you have some of that safe person to share it with and like naming what your fear is like I'm afraid this kid is gonna end up in prison, or they're not gonna be able to hold down a job because they just they're so um demand avoidant, right? You name that thing, and then I love to flip it on, well, what's your hope? Because so much um about leadership and impacting the world comes starts in our brain, right? And it's it's very Christianese, and we can get into this, but the taking captive your thoughts thing, it is important here. You're not responsible for the first thought of like, here we go again. She's such a complainer. But parenting from that thought, the spicy one is so sensitive that they they're a mammal, right? They read your cues that there's a little bit of derision and your eyes are harder than they normally are. So you got to notice that thought, set it down, and flip it on like um wow, she always lets me know where she stands. Or she is um highly sensitive to her environment and she's working on her skills to be able to um be flexible. Like finding that way. I have a whole, if you take the cover off my book, um parenting a spicy one, the thing I'm most proud of and had to fight for, John, is that there is a whole list of 50 words that are positive about this kid. Intelligent, inventive, lovable, passionate, persistent, quick-witted, sensitive, tenacious, willing to repair, zealous. We had to take off zesty because I found out it was a it's now a gay slur. Um, but stay focused, Mary. There, there is just uh we have to name, we have to share with somebody because our story changes when we share it with somebody. And don't keep that inside if you're really struggling with your kid and liking them and feeling hopeful about them. You gotta share that. But then you got to do the work to write out what's your hope. What do you hope is going to happen? And I love to do the old Thanksgiving visualization, which is like, it is 20 years from now. Your kid is coming back for Thanksgiving and they're with a friend and they're they're just like singing and they're clipping their hands, and their friend's like, what's going on with you? You're like so high energy, and they're like, I can't wait to get back to see my parent. Can't wait to be home. And if the friend's like, why? What do you hope this kid says? Oh, because my dad is so whatever that is, getting that clear in your head, because that's your hope. And it's not so much about your kid and who they show up as because they're gonna kind of become who they're gonna become. Who do how what relationship are you hoping to build? What kind of influence? Who do you want them to say you are? And then it's time to start doing the work to be that version of yourself.

Shame Cycles And Staying Even Keeled

Jon @WholeParent 14:50

Yeah, and and that, you know, what you're describing is is like the the origins of of these kind of deep shame cycles, right? When we don't name when we don't name that that intrusive thought about what's happening. That's how we wind up carrying this shame, and then we sort of when we carry it, we pass it on. Shame is is very contagious. Yeah, especially. Yeah, to especially to kids who who are so as you said, uh you you you said something that kind of you flew you flew past where you said, um, I used to call myself highly sensitive, and now I think that it's just a thinly veiled uh phrase for autism or or label for autism. And I like I'm I'm a little my half of my brain is still stuck over there because I'm not gonna be able to do that later. Yeah, I I I definitely Elaine Aaron's work and I am not highly sensitive, but but um I definitely use that work and I definitely use that uh that framework with a lot of parents that I work with. But when I think about if if we're describing the same kids or there's overlap here, or it's a Venn diagram, that's basically just a circle, um, with the spicy ones and the highly sensitive kids, when we think about shame in and a lot of Elaine Aaron's work, it's like they can read it on you. Like you said, they're mammals, but but it's not just that they're mammals, like they're they're they're more perceptive. Yes. And it sounds like kind of what you're saying is until we lay those things out and we we name those things to somebody who's safe, not necessarily to our kid. We do our own internal work.

SPEAKER_00 16:27

Not to your kid, right.

Jon @WholeParent 16:28

Right? We do our own internal work and we bring that to a trusted therapeutic relationship in our life, then only then can we move forward. Because I feel like one of the hardest parts of of parenting a kid who's deeply challenging is that we wind up not not just not liking them, I think that that's kind of almost that's the surface level.

SPEAKER_00 16:49

I think the real fear is that we s start to not like ourselves because how we are around them is And I think often the thing that we find sort of repugnant in them, disagreeable, is often the thing within us that nobody liked and that we haven't learned how to like. And I do think the spicy one is here to help us take up a little more space than we have, because at first we're like, why are they so loud? Why do they have these opinions? And I don't think we can leapfrog over self-compassion to be compassionate to our struggling child. I think to your point, we have to start with like, how am I showing up for me? How what how do I speak to myself? Like I caught myself the other day going, I hate how I hate myself that I do that. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, that's strong words, Missy. Can we sports cast that? Can we rephrase that and say, um, I'm still struggling with this and it's it's frustrating for me? Like just the way we speak to ourselves becomes the way we speak to our child, becomes the way they speak to themselves. And to your point, this kid is so they are allergic to shame. And it's it's good. It's almost like if we have parents that smoke cigarettes and we're allergic to smoke, they gotta stop. And you'll find that things you thought weren't, well, that's not that shaming. Just like and they see the shame underneath it, and you realize I'm using old school discipline because that does feel shameful.

Jon @WholeParent 18:18

Here's here's one for my book. Maybe, maybe it can give you some some language for that. The thing that I learned in writing punishment free parenting, which I think very clearly overlaps with almost everything that you're doing here. Like it's just we're we're we're we're saying the same thing in different ways. Um the thing that I learned for myself was was that if punishment is an ineffective tool for discipline for our children, then punishment is an ineffective tool for disciplining ourselves. And so if we feel that we need to make ourselves feel bad enough before we change, because that's the in that's the inherited paradigm, right? Like that's and we're not gonna say that that's what your parents did, but that's what so many parents did, right? That we the way to make somebody change was to make them feel bad enough that they forced themselves to change to to um alleviate the tension that comes from that shame that they were experiencing, right? Shame is this powerful motivator in some ways. Uh, it's just not usually a motivator for positive change, but it is a powerful motivator, it's a motivator for something.

SPEAKER_00 19:33

Yeah, it usually stops whatever's happening right then with the spicy one, it can end up escalating things. So it blows back in our face. Um, but you said something. Oh, I want to even add to that this idea that um punishment has to hurt. I also think we subconsciously believe I have to be angry while disciplining for it to work. Like, uh-uh, that's not gonna work. Like I somehow have to marshal up this anger because then my kid will know I'm serious, or then it'll be uh effective. And that actually isn't true. The spicy one is research shows that challenging kids like this are um more susceptible negatively to authoritarian um do it because I said so, and to harsh um emotional messaging. They really need us to stay even keeled. And that's a lot of what I write in the book is like, how do you become the calmest one in the room so that the spicy one can borrow a little bit of that and you are de-escalating all of this drama and these power struggles. But a big part of it is you don't have to be angry to set a limit. In fact, your limit and your lesson will be so much more received if you aren't activating the parts of their brain that are very defensive when you're dealing with someone who's angry. Because back to the mammal thing, your body sees that as a threat. I can't learn while I'm feeling threatened.

Jon @WholeParent 21:02

Right. The entire premise of punishment free parenting is that uh when you teach punish a child to teach them a lesson, you turn off the part of their brain that learns. Right? Like that's that's fundamentally what it's about. Let me take a quick break and then we'll be back with more Mary Van Gevan.

Tools That Build Skills And Connection

Jon @WholeParent 21:23

We are back discovering parenting a spicy one with Mary Van Gevan, and I wanted to kind of shift our conversation to some practical tools because I think if parents have been listening along and they've been hearing this and saying, okay, that's me or that's my kid, and again, this is an encompassing definition of, you know, kids who may be on the spectrum, who may have ADHD symptoms or even a diagnosis, kids who are highly sensitive, kids who are explosive, uh, all of the three letter acronyms. That kind of are dehumanizing PDA, ODD. Um What do we do with these kids? We've talked a lot about what we shouldn't do. We've talked about what we can do for ourselves. What do we do for them?

SPEAKER_00 22:14

Well, I I mentioned earlier become the calmest person in the room. And that's I say that because it's sort of like when I tell my husband, can you pick up some of this stuff around your bed? And he's like, Oh, really, Mary? And begins to gesture to the entire room that is all my junk. We need to clean up our side of the street before we go and clean up theirs. So it's important. It's kind of most of the tools I have don't really work if you're not calm while using them. Um so that's number one. Number two is this research shows there's been 26 different um individual research studies that somebody did a meta analysis of, and they show that this kid does best with positive reinforcement. Okay, what's that mean? Um, my favorite way to do that is affirming the behavior that you want. And sometimes you have to be a friggin' detective for this kid because they're just pushing all your buttons, doing everything wrong. But when you see them get up from the table and take their plate, you need to have a party if that's the skill you're working on. That's number two. Number three is don't work on everything at once. Have one skill you're working on, and then you've got to work on delighting in this child because they need that um real that positive relationship. And often because they can be defiant, everything feels negative because we're constantly managing and stopping, and oh, please don't, and uh-uh, not today, you know, all that. We have to do active work to delight in them and to say the and to see in them the positive and to name it. And when you begin naming that goodness, they kind of rise up to inhabit that goodness. Um, you know, name a king and a king will appear kind of thing. Um, we also with this kid, we got to collaborate. So that looks like when before you get in an environment where you know there's gonna be issues, you have a conversation and you set the vision for how you want things to go. You give them a word picture, like we're going to grandma's, and remember she has all those breakables. Are we allowed in that room? No, okay, right. We're gonna stay in this room, and what are we going to do instead? What are we what can we play with? You're having that conversation or you're going into Target. It's like you get really sad when we leave Target because you want me to buy something. Will I be buying something today? No, maybe. No, I will not, but I will let you play with something. Now, what's gonna happen when it's time to put the thing you're playing with in the in the shopping cart away and you cry? You give it to me? No, I'm not gonna give it to you. What how would you like me to respond? So it's making a plan with them, which by the way, they're not gonna respect most of the time, but you've made it and you feel good in yourself that when they were in their calm mannered um version of them, they got to give some input on what would feel good in those times when you do need to stay firm on the limit. Those are some ideas. But the it's the connection first with this kid. Don't bother trying to direct them and tell them what to do. Their counter will is strong like bull. If they don't feel an attachment can be so paper thin and needs to be re-um created every time we've been separated. So it's really looking on how do I connect? How do I just sit with them in their room and observe the play they're doing and almost meditate on the goodness of them without telling them what to do or fixing something or seeing the the problems that are there?

Getting Cooperation Without Power Struggles

Jon @WholeParent 25:45

Okay, I'm gonna play devil's advocate here. Okay. Because I agree with everything that you're saying. And so I'm gonna give you one of the most common pushbacks that I get when I say, hey, this is a difference between connection and control, right? And it seems like you're very interested in this difference, the difference of between connection and control, how connection is this great tool of discipline, control falls short, especially with these kids who have this kind of and and if there is an acronym that I like, I like taking when parents get the PDA diagnosis and saying, hey, instead of pathological demand avoidance, let's think about this as a persistent drive for autonomy, right? Yes, I love that. So so when I start start on that stuff, they say, okay, okay, this is nice, that's a nice way of putting it. I like all of your words that you're saying, but like I still need my kid to cooperate. How do you explain that to them in that moment? Like, like how do you gain that cooperation with this kid who is just like every single thing is is a battle. And everything is like you're you're putting so much into the connection. Well, I spent, you know, and I hear these parents that I spent an hour playing with my kid, and then we went to Target, and then they just will not cooperate whatsoever, you know, and then we're at the grocery store, and I did all of, you know, I I did all of this connection building. John or Mary, I did all of this connection and and I did it and I did it and I checked the box. But I need cooperation sometimes. Sometimes we just got to get out of the house and put our shoes on.

SPEAKER_00 27:19

What do you think about it? Amen. You you I wish that for you. Um sometimes I I a few thoughts. One is are you connecting transactionally? Are you connecting so that they will um do what you say? That that can kind of be felt, and um, I don't know that great intimacy is built in that way. Um, but also sometimes there's just a skill gap and no amount of um, oh yeah, we're really we're getting along well and we've laughed and we've had eye contact and there's been touch, all the things that kind of show that there's a connection, and yet we go to um Target and then we make a second uh errand and they lose their crap. Well, they there may be a skill gap where they are overstimulated and they literally don't have the capacity to do multiple errands, and part of their process, the dignity of their process is they're gonna melt down. You wanna push a you're gonna push it, then this is what happens. So I think being aware that you it isn't going to magically teach them the things that they need to do and that they're you're still gonna need to do things like the do-over when they run across the street and you are very connected with them, that's not defiance. That's I don't yet I I have a I I lack impulse control and I don't yet have the muscle memory of waiting and looking both ways. And so I I also hear and there, if it's like getting ready to get out the door, well, a lot of that is making it really clear what the steps are. And I want to see it in writing that these are the eight things a child must do before we leave. Eight might be too many for a five-year-old. Um, so it's it's looking at the skill that you want them to exhibit and checking out is that developmentally appropriate? What are some things we can a lot of these kids need a body double? You can be so connected with them and be like, now great. Will you go clean your room and clean your room? I'm I'm 55. I don't know what that means. You need to tell me, would you go take everything off your side table? Thank you. Thank you for breaking it down. Thank you for sitting in the room while I do it. Some of this, and it's back to that grief. Some of this is if you got a spicy one with a diagnosis or a delay, these things might never be able to be done independently, or it might take a lot longer than their peers. And I think that there's some grieving we gotta do around that. How would you answer that question though? Because I bet you have a good one all teed up.

Jon @WholeParent 29:51

I don't. I don't. I think I think sometimes you pick up your kid and you put them in the car. And I don't and and and I and I don't I think sometimes the parents feel like if I'm if I if I need if every single thing is this huge conversation, you know, to do anything. And I th I really like what you said earlier, and this parallels a lot with some some other work. I'm thinking of Ross Green and uh the explosive child, very, very similar, where what you said earlier with respect to not trying to fix everything at once and and choosing your battles, I think this is like so much for parents is like you don't work on one skill at a time. And so that my thing would be okay, if if your kids just like not putting their shoes on, like that's maybe that's the next skill to work on. If that's if that's a constant struggle, if that's an everyday struggle, then like that's the next skill to build. But if you're working on something else right now, if if you're working on picking up toys after we leave the room, like maybe it's just not time right now for that skill to be built. And I like what you said, coming to terms with some people, yeah, it's hard for me to know all the always what exactly I have some executive functioning stuff where I have to make lists of how to clean the kitchen. And people are like, that's you're what a you're a grown adult. I'm like, no, no, no. Because you don't understand that I will leave the kitchen with like two, I will do all of the dishes and leave two things in there. Well, why would you ever do that? I don't know. If I knew I did it, then I wouldn't do it. But like I have to go, okay, as you're leaving the room, turn around and go back to the sink and count the number of items. Oh, there should be zero. And I will go back and I will go, oh, there are two. That's so strange. If you had asked me, I would have said zero. And I did a whole episode with um this excellent uh guy, his name is Dr. Josh on social media, where he talked about um I I imagine we could talk about this for a long time, but the the reflexive lying that the spicy ones will do as well, where it's like you just it's not actually a lie, it's it's stating what they wish to be true. And it's like word vomit, right?

SPEAKER_00 32:02

It's like wait, I want to go back to what you said because I I misinterpreted your question a little bit, and now I've got more context. I do want to underscore that this kid needs us to stand in our parental authority. And the in the book I call it finding your inner royalty and like finding that posture and the way you hold yourself that is, I am meant to be the leader here. What I say will go. Um, and you move like royalty slowly and um with intention. Because when you're like, come on, we got to get ready. I'm over here washing the dishes, and why aren't you? That's not gonna get a spicy one to do anything. So some of it is bringing your physical proximity to the ask and like coming up. If when I come up to you and say, It's time to get your shoes on, I'm not angry, I'm not menacing, but I am fully here and I am believing that is what we're going to do, and I'm willing to help you and stay next to you. It's the multitasking, which I get it, modern parenting, how the hell do we get out the door without it? It's not very effective with this kid. And I the one other thing I want to name is I think a lot of people with a spicy one try to avoid their meltdown by, oh, okay, maybe you could bring your shoes, which you know, uh every family has to work out their thing, but when we walk on eggshells to avoid them getting upset, we do them a total disservice. This kid needs to get upset and get upset a lot. So I actually want you to get to the boundary quicker if you have one, rather than trying to work around it and manage it so they can grieve, feel that, and then move through it and see that they they are gonna be disappointed a lot, I can guarantee you. Um, and they need to feel that in the safety of your relationship.

Jon @WholeParent 33:48

I love that standing in in royalty. I feel like that I'm gonna clip that out and add that as like a social media clip because I feel like the a lot of parenting is, especially with these kids, the kids with that persistent drive for autonomy, is we do this, okay. Can you get your shoes on for me? That's that's that like now we've we've we've asked them a question and the answer can be no. And if the answer is no, now we're going to revoke their autonomy after the fact. Now we're gonna take that away from them. It feels very uh it's almost it's unfair. As Brene Braun says, Right, as Brene Braun says, being uh clear is kind. And if it's not a question, like don't ask it as a question, stand in that royalty. If there's one thing, like one thing that you want a parent of a spicy one to know, speak directly to them. What is that thing?

SPEAKER_00 34:46

I think it would be that um if you're not sure what your next move is, it really helps to connect with what you would have wanted as a little person. And sometimes we get so we get into a me versus you, we other our child, and like, ah, they can't, you know, and we forget what it was like to be their age and some of the things that we struggled with. And asking yourself, how would I have liked my parent to have responded if I was behaving this way? What would I be looking for and needing? And I feel like sometimes that uncovers some of our intuition and our and our deep knowing of what this kid needs.

Where To Find Mary And Next Steps

Jon @WholeParent 35:31

Couldn't have said it better myself. That was beautiful. Thank you. You can find Mary Van Geffen on Instagram at Mary Van Geffen. You can also find her at her website, which is Mary Van Geffen. MaryvanGeffen.com. You can find Parenting a Spicy One wherever books are sold, especially down in the show notes, where you can find a link to purchase. Mary, thank you so much for being on the Whole Parent Podcast today.

SPEAKER_00 35:56

It was so fun.

Jon @WholeParent 36:07

Thanks again for listening to this episode of the Whole Parent Podcast. I hope it was worth the time that you gave it today. I hope you learned something or were challenged, or maybe it just made you smile. If it did, there's a couple of things that you can do that would really, really help me out. The first one is to go right now and subscribe to my channel at Whole Parent on YouTube. YouTube is getting full, unabridged versions of every podcast episode ad-free right now. I am really trying to get people over there because I have so much awesome YouTube content planned and I have such a small following over there. So if you want to get the best of Whole Parent, hop over to the YouTube. There's awesome stuff there. It's going to absolutely change your life. The second thing that you can do is actually go to the link in the description. You can find YouTube there as well, but find the link for the Parent Lab. It's my exclusive community where I do group coaching. I have a whole course library there full of amazing educational resources for parents. It is a subscription model where you gain access for a low monthly fee. Go ahead, check out the Parent Lab. There's so many amazing things in the Parent Lab. And if you want to grow in your parenting, it's the best way to do that. The third thing that you can do, and it probably costs you the most because it costs you vulnerability, is to share this episode or this podcast in general with people in your life. There are parents in your life who are struggling. There are parents in your life who could use this in their life. And we know that the number one way that we can get more people to listen and watch and follow along with the podcast is by personal referral. People want to know what you're listening to. They want to know what's helping you to parent more effectively. And so if you can do that, find somebody in your life who needs this podcast and send it to them. I would be so, so, so appreciative. Thank you again so much for your time. You can find links to everything that we talked about in the episode, including my books, Punishment Free Parenting, and Set My Feelings Free down below. And I'll see you next time.