Unconditional Parenting with Alfie Kohn #83

If you feel stuck in tantrums, power struggles, or constant “do this / don’t do that”… this shifts how you see it completely

Most parenting advice focuses on fixing behavior, timeouts, consequences, sticker charts, but what if that’s the very thing keeping you stuck? In this conversation, we unpack why common tools like rewards and punishments often lead to more resistance, more meltdowns, and less real cooperation over time. If your toddler refuses to listen, pushes boundaries, or seems “unmotivated” unless there’s a reward, this will help you understand what’s actually driving their behavior, and what to do instead when you’re overwhelmed in the moment.

What You’ll Learn:

•  Why rewards and punishments often create short-term compliance but long-term struggles 
•  What’s really happening underneath “bad behavior” (and how to respond to it) 
•  How to shift from control-based parenting to connection-based cooperation 
•  A simple mindset shift that reduces power struggles immediately 
•  What to focus on instead of “getting your child to listen” 

This approach is grounded in developmental psychology and decades of research on motivation, behavior, and parent-child relationships. It’s not about being permissive or “letting things go,” it’s about understanding your child deeply enough that you don’t have to rely on control in the first place. When you shift the goal from obedience to long-term growth, your responses start to change in a way that actually works.

If you’re tired of second-guessing yourself in hard moments, and you want a clearer, calmer way to handle tantrums, defiance, and everyday struggles, this is exactly what we focus on here. Subscribe so parenting starts to feel more manageable, and you feel more confident in what you’re doing, even on the hard days.

Here's a link to Alfie Kohn's book: Unconditional Parenting: Moving From Rewards and Punishments to Love and Reason

Transcript

The Control Reflex In Parenting

Jon @WholeParent 0:00

It starts the way the most parenting moments start. Not with philosophy or a framework, but with a tiny ordinary moment. Your child does something that you don't like. Maybe they hit or they ignore you, or they melt down in the middle of the grocery store. And almost instantly, before you've had even time to think about it, you reach for something consequence, reward, some sort of conditional behavioral modification tool. Something to get them to change. Because that's what parenting is, right? Getting the right behavior. But what if that entire premise is off? For about the last six years since the pandemic, with the rise of TikTok and Instagram, and the so-called gentle parenting movement. We've been questioning whether that premise is off. Whether the very tools that we were handed down, punishments, rewards, aren't just ineffective in the long run, but are quietly undermining the exact kind of human that we're trying to raise. There's been one researcher sounding the alarm about this for more than 20 years. Before we dive into this episode, I want to give you a quick note about it. This conversation has been sitting with me for a while. I actually have pulled clips and used them in some of my favorite past episodes. But this is the first time that I am releasing the full unedited conversation in its entirety. And honestly, carrying it all the way through just hits different. Today's episode is with that researcher. It's a conversation with Alfie Cohen. One of the most influential and if I'm being honest, controversial voices in parenting and education. He was foundational to my introduction into this world of parenting. And his central claim is deceptively simple it's not enough to love your kids. You have to love them unconditionally, in a way that they actually experience, not just the way that you intend it. Because according to Cohn, most of what we call parenting isn't really about connection at all. It's about control. Sometimes it's obvious, like punching it. But sometimes it's sugar coded, phrase, stickers, rewards, fixed boxes. And underneath it all, the message is that saying do this and you'll get my approval. Or don't, and you'll lose it. In this conversation, we unpack why rewards are not the opposites of punishment, but actually two sides of the same coin. And why focusing on behavior might be the very thing that makes change harder. And above all, the question that quietly reframes it all. Not how do I get my child to do what I want, but what does my child need to become a healthy, effective adult? This episode might challenge some of the most common tools in your parenting toolbox. But more than that, it's going to invite you to something deeper. From doing things to your child to working with your child. Oh, and one other quick note before we jump in. Alfie doesn't like recording podcasts on computers. Says that it causes unnecessary headache. So there's no video to this episode. And if it sounds like the entire thing is being recorded with Alfie talking on a landline, that's because it is. Alfie Cohn, one of my very favorite parenting authors of all time. Welcome, Alfie.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

Uh nice to be here.

Jon @WholeParent 3:47

Uh so you know, I just want to first off say, and I we said this right before I hit record, but but very much so, my introduction into the parenting world. You were one of the foundational pieces. And if there was uh, you know, columns holding up pillars holding up uh my parenting philosophy, one of those pillars would would have been named Unconditional Parenting, which is one of my very favorite parenting books. It's always on my top 10 parenting reads. And that book was written by you. And how long ago did you write that book?

SPEAKER_00 4:24

Uh that's almost 20 years ago now.

Jon @WholeParent 4:28

You know, that's so profound to me because so much of the conversation in like basically post-pandemic, 2021, 2022, when people had their kids back at home with them, I I imagine that the conversation has really elevated in this space. But 20 years you have been talking about why punishments, rewards, and just just the negative impacts of traditional discipline. Do you want to speak to that at all?

SPEAKER_00 4:58

Uh sure. So the book begins with the premise that it's not enough for us just to love our children or even love them a lot, because not all love is equal. And what children need, what we all need actually, but especially children, is to be loved for who they are, not for what they do. That means that even when they fail to impress us or do something that disturbs us, they know that our love won't be turned off, as if we're turning off a tap, that um that we'll continue to love them no matter what. That's what unconditional means. Uh we love them, as a friend of mine likes to say, for no damn good reason. And it's not just that if we are asked, we say, Of course I love my child no matter what. Almost everybody says that. It's that children experience that unconditionality. So the problem is that the vast majority of parenting resources are not just failing to emphasize this point and this distinction, but are actively encouraging us to use strategies to make kids obey that amount to the opposite, conditional parenting, where there are strings attached where our care, our attention, our approval are made contingent on their acting the way we want. Uh so that kids know they will get that excitement from us, that high five, that fist bump, that big smile, that hug, uh uh that praise, um only when they are impressive or well behaved. And the way that that conditionality manifests itself typically is through some variant of either threats or bribes.

Jon @WholeParent 7:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:03

That's what makes the love conditional.

Rewards And Punishments Share The Same Logic

Jon @WholeParent 7:06

Right. And and I think that that's, you know, and I think that the the one of the key distinctions for me when I read Unconditional Parenting, which by the way, if if the listeners have not gone out and gotten that book yet, please do. Um I actually mentioned that book on one of the first interviews, your book, I should say, not that book, your book, uh, on one of the first interviews that I did, that was kind of like a more national spot, where somebody was like, Well, what, you know, what is like the most rat like radical mindset mindset shift book that you can have? And and I think that unconditional parenting for me was that book because it's not only about the threats and the punishments, which I think rightfully we're seeing an increasing number of people deconstructing, but it's also the bribes and it's also the rewards, and it's also that that those the absence of a reward then becomes the the conditional response, or even the presence of a reward becomes the conditional sponsor. And I and I think that that's like such a profound take. And I just wonder how how that even came about. Like how how did you start to see rewards as as much of the problem as just punishment and and kind of problematic pain-based discipline?

SPEAKER_00 8:22

Yeah. So some years earlier, I wrote another book, uh, an even longer one, that wasn't just about parenting, but also about schooling and about management in the workplace, a book called Punished by Rewards. Um and so I start with the idea that when you punish people, you by saying to them, let's let's we'll just talk about kids here, since that's our focus in this conversation. But this applies with how teachers treat students and how managers treat employees as well. But with our with our children, um when we want them to do something, we often threaten them by saying in effect, do this or here's what I'm gonna do to you. And punishment, even if we call it by some euphemism like consequences, um basically is we're gonna we're threatening to deliberately make them unhappy in the hope of eliciting mindless obedience. And a vast number of parenting resources are all about calling that by sweeter names, you know, instead of forcible isolation of young children when they need us most, we call it time out, you know, because that makes us feel better about making children feel terrible. And punishment of whatever kind, you know, from time out or spanking or withdrawal of privileges, can only succeed ever at getting one thing, which is temporary compliance, but at an enormous cost. And there's a huge amount of research on how punishment of any kind, you know, and for any reason, isn't just ineffective in the long run, it's actually counterproductive. So I got to looking at the research and discovered that virtually everything I've just said about punishment is also true of rewards. Rewards are not really an opposite to punishment, they're just the other side of the coin. Now, instead of saying do this or here's what I'm gonna do to you, we say to them, do this, and you'll get that. It's still about doing things to children rather than working with them. And the research finds that rewards, exactly like punishments, can be effective only at getting one thing ever temporary compliance, but at a huge cost. What rewards tend to do is on first of all, they warp our relationship with children. You know, now instead of seeing us as you know enforcers, they have to fear and hide from, they see us as giant goodie dispensers on legs, which is no closer to the kind of caring alliance that helps kids to flourish. But a huge amount of research, which I did for that other book and then periodically updated, shows that the more you reward people for doing something, the more they tend to lose interest in whatever they had to do to get the reward. So, just one example is studies have continued to show that children who are frequently rewarded or praised by their child by their parents tend to be less generous and caring than other kids. You might buy the behavior of getting them to do something, but um now the point is to see that activity as a means to an end. So if you wanted to destroy children's interest in reading, you would give them a prize for reading a book, or give them a good grade, or a sticker, or pat them on the head and say, good job, you're such a good reader. You can almost watch their interest in reading evaporate before your eyes, because now you've taught them that reading is just a tedious prerequisite to getting the doggy biscuit. You devalue whatever it is they have to do to get the reward. That includes reading, it includes caring, sharing, whatever your goal is. So, exactly like punishments, rewards, a way of doing things to kids, make it less likely that kids will grow up into the kind of people we hope they will.

What Consequences Really Mean

Jon @WholeParent 13:09

Yeah. Oh well, I think that that's so profound. And, you know, a couple a couple of things that I just want to pull out of that, because I feel like what you just gave us was was so so deep and is probably so challenging to so many parents, not only because uh we may feel like these are effective tools, but because, and I think you'll agree, the overwhelming majority of parents were raised in systems that leveraged punishments and rewards. And the kind of the more uh I don't know, high-minded, high society, high education your parents may have been, if you were raised in the 80s and 90s, perhaps the more rewards to punishments versus if you were kind of coming from a more blue-collar family, maybe it was more punishments than rewards. But ultimately that it was some sliding scale of these two that that very, very much so devalued all actions that weren't met immediately with some sort of conditioned response. And and what I look at in so I I actually wrote a book. We haven't discussed this yet. This is our first time meeting. Um, but I actually wrote a book that comes out in uh oh man, January of 2025, the end of January of 2025. And the book is called Punishment Free Parenting. And I don't I don't talk a lot about uh rewards in the book, but I go in depth and man, I'm gonna have to pull out that quote because that's actually almost a direct quote. I don't know if I got it from you or if I if where I got it from, probably just from the research, is just so glaringly obvious to those of us who have actually dug into this. That uh not only is punishment an ineffective tool or an uh does it lack effective means for long-term benefit for kids, it's actually counterproductive to those means. That is like the the thesis of the book. The first entire chapter, which is like the longest chapter in the book, is all about why punishment is an ineffective tool. So I thank you, thank you for just making me feel so affirmed in that in that you know, that that excoriation of punishment makes me really feel like, okay, at least at least 20 years of of uh Alfie Cohn's research is is going into uh supporting this claim. Because as you can imagine, when you put out a book that's called Punishment Free Parenting, the immediate response is, wait, wait, wait, but but no punishment. And and I I also like what you said about consequences often being a euphemism for punishment. I distinguish between the two, but it's only because uh I'm being a little bit uh uh careful with my with my definitions. And so when I would say a consequence, I would say allowing a child to experience then the outcomes of their actions when appropriate. So when it's not causing them undue harm and stress. So for example, a consequence for me would be if you're caring and compassionate, you don't get a reward for that, but you do see and you might draw the child's conscious attention to how that made a peer feel. I bet, you know, hey, I can see that they're um that you seemed like they felt better when you went over and you you comforted them when they were upset. I feel like that's a consequence, right? That's a consequence of positive pro-social behavior versus you know, a consequence of maybe less negative, more, more uh antisocial behavior, pushing a kid down, which is a totally developmentally normal thing, maybe to say, yeah, and I'm not sure if they're gonna want to play with you, but I'm I'm happy to still play with you because my caring and compassion and love is unconditional. I feel like that's you know, maybe a difference, but but how would you respond to that? Would you say that that's a different use of the word consequence, or would you say that that's no, that's that's still potentially problematic?

SPEAKER_00 19:35

Um, well, one related question is even if we're able to draw a distinction between different kinds of consequences, and I think maybe the most useful axis here is to think about whether the primary consequence is to the other person you're interacting with versus to yourself.

Jon @WholeParent 19:59

Totally.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

Well, most of the time when we talk about consequence, we get kids to think about the consequence to me.

Jon @WholeParent 20:06

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 20:07

If my if my if the person with the power catches me acting in a way that person wants, what do I get or what bad thing do I avoid, as opposed to what's the consequence of my action to others? Um, which as Martin Hoffman pointed out in his theory some years ago that I talk about in my book, kind of deductive discipline where you inductive rather, where you induce children to think about and see the impact that their actions have made to others. So there is a way to make that distinction consequences um to self versus to others, but if the word has been effectively appropriated by other writers and therapists so that it's become, in effect, just a synonym for or euphemism for punishment, then maybe we do without the word.

Jon @WholeParent 21:02

I'm gonna pause the episode here for a moment and take a quick break, and then I'll come back with Alfie. I think I think the challenge for many parents is they say is that they swing towards, and and here I know you and I are gonna this is this is where I wanted to go next in the conversation, but I think they swing towards the possibility of being permissive. So 20 years ago when you wrote unconditional parenting, I think you you you really hit this on the head. 20 years ago, I think that there was the the there was a myth around the permissive parent, which was any parent who not any, but the overwhelming majority of parents who were deeming themselves to be permissive or who most often were interacting with authoritarian parenting, and who the authoritarian parents were labeling them as being permissive, these people were not actually permissive in any way, or or were only you know, very to a small extent permissive. Today I am seeing a rise in what I would say is almost a punished by permissiveness where kids who truly have no their parents are so disinterested in placing any sort of boundary, probably because of their own personal trauma related to authoritarian parenting in their own upbringing, are actually just kind of permissive. And this is something that I did not see even 10 years ago. Are you seeing that at all? Would you would you revise that that there is such a thing as permissiveness in parenting, or would you still hold to, you know, no, this is that's really a real, really rare thing. This is this is a unicorn experience, and it's very rare that it exists out in the world.

SPEAKER_00 22:49

Well, this is where I don't trust myself or other individuals to look at their own circles, which are colored by their expectations and possibly a bit of motivated reasoning, what we want to see as well. This is where I'd want to see some sort of social science data. Um I haven't seen anything to indicate there's been a significant change in that. I mean, I I when the book came out, I had to distinguish what I was doing from permissiveness because most people tend to think in very dichotomous terms. You know, you're either punitive or you're permissive. And uh, you know, and there are some families where where one one parent is is the punisher and the other is the one who lets the kid get away with everything, I guess, based on the idea that these these these two dysfunctional approaches magically cancel each other out and produce health. But it of course it doesn't work that way.

Jon @WholeParent 23:51

No, there's no individuals.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

Yeah. Uh and then there are individual parents who sometimes swing wildly between one approach and the other. One one mom said, I am permissive with my kid until I can't stand him, at which point I become so pun punitive that I can't stand myself. And my point is that neither of those is desirable, um, that to support kids, to work with them to solve problems in the way that I try to discuss in my book, um, in the absence of either punishment or reward, um is is not the same thing as permissiveness because there are more than just those two options. But in terms of what's more prevalent in our Society, I continue to believe, and I mean I'm open to being corrected if hard data based on the attitudes that parents display and the approaches to parenting that they endorse find otherwise. But what I still see today is that for every parent who is permissive, completely hands-off, uh I'm not going to touch or reprimand or respond to or guide my darling. But I think the real problem, the real challenge we face is continues to be not an epidemic of permissiveness, but an epidemic of parents who are so fearful of being thought permissive that they overcompensate by controlling, even if they're doing it with groovier methods.

Long-Term Goals Over Short-Term Compliance

Jon @WholeParent 25:54

Well, and I think that that's no, that's a that's a great place to rest here for a moment. I do have one more question for you that I want to make sure that we get to about just some practical how how do we handle when we are in those experiences. I think that that mom who says, you know, I'm so permissive until I can't stand my kid, and then I become overly punitive and I can't stand myself. That's such a that's such a powerful quote, I think, because it it encapsulates how so many parents experience parenting and they just need some practical advice about, okay, if I'm gonna do this unconditional parenting thing, this no, this anti-punishment, you know, a la, probably they've heard that from me enough at this point, but also I'm not gonna be punishing my kids with rewards. How do we practically engage those kids? I want to get to that, but I do want to just say before we get to that, that I I totally agree that that the uh issue of control-based parenting versus permissiveness probably still outnumbers at least 10 to one, if not hundreds to one, as you highlighted, you know. Um, I think that what we're experiencing is that as parents are deconstructing the paradigms of authoritarian parenting and punishment and punitive methods and and control in general, that often they swing, albeit probably temporarily, to being like, well, I don't know what to do then, so I'm going to do nothing. And I think that might be what I'm experiencing. And and like I like you very you know perfectly pointed out, I am encapsulated in my own uh social circles. And in in my social circles, I tend to see more of the extreme cases. And so my experience is probably more of the, well, the the type of people who are asking someone like me for for input, they're way more likely to be permissive than than the average person on the street, and probably you know, 10 to one, uh at least. So I definitely think that that's that's a powerful thing. I I will also say, and this is the last thing I want to say before we get to that, you know, more practical side to end our conversation. Um, I also want to just say that the other aspect that I see now is, as you said, the sugar coating, the good jobs, whatever that looked like and and continues to look like. The most problematic one that I see now, and I don't want to call out any individual parenting author or or anything like that, but even the most popular parenting books out there, they may talk about intrinsic motivation, which you've been talking about for as long as anyone, they may talk about self-esteem, they may talk about power dynamics between parents, but ultimately their advice uh comes down to how can I leverage any tool in my arsenal, even if it's not punishment or rewards, to gain compliance, control, and obedience. And I think that that if if there is a one takeaway that I would hope from my end of this conversation that listeners take away, it would be that uh if you are trying to gain obedience, you're you're still working within a broken system. And that's why uh you can't see this because you're not on video, but there is a quote that is up in my office that is not readable on the screen, but there's an image of a brain with uh the words whole parent, which is what you know, the whole parent podcast, which is what this is. Um, and underneath it is your quote, which says, Children, it's not from unconditional parenting, but children learn how to make decisions by making decisions, not by following directions. And and I think that that was the first time when I went, oh, I get it. Obedience can't be the goal because because I want my child to outgrow my control. I want my child to not need me to control them. I want them to control themselves and how and and from an ethical perspective, just be able to make those decisions. So, what do we do when we're in those trenches moments, when we're a parent and we find ourselves just overwhelmed by whatever it is, you know, our own we're we're triggered because defiance was met with harsh punishment in our house growing up and our child's being defiant because that's the age-appropriate thing for them to do in that moment. And we just feel like the only way to get, you know, our kid to put their shoes on or to go to school or to eat whatever is to resort to punishments and rewards. What would you say to that parent if you just had, you know, three minutes to tell them what to do?

SPEAKER_00 30:24

Well, we have only three minutes left, and I'm not sure I can do justice to a question that covers so many different children, different parents with different backgrounds, histories, and beliefs, and different situations. So I I I can't do it in two minutes without sounding platitudinous. And I hate to be the kind of author who says, you know, read the book for details, but given that, you know, you've left me two minutes, I don't think I can say more than that.

Jon @WholeParent 30:54

Um consider the needs of your own child, too. I think that that's uh that's powerful. First, you have to consider the needs of your own child in your own background. Yeah, no, thank you.

Focus On Needs Not Behavior

Closing Thanks And Listener Requests

SPEAKER_00 31:04

And then also consider I bel I begin my workshops and lectures by asking parents and teachers for that matter, what are your long-term goals for your kids? How do you hope they'll turn out years from now? What do you hope they'll be like? And everywhere I go, I find I get the same kind of answers. I want my kid to be happy, to be ethical, to be caring and compassionate, to be self-sufficient and independent, to be curious learners and so on. And so, what I do for a living is I say to people, you say you want this. So why are you doing that? Because here's the research showing that that, the common practice, actively undermines your own long-term goals. Never mind that I don't like it. And so in the latter half of unconditional parenting, I talk about broad strategies, not specific scripts, not one-size fits-all recipes, uh, so that you just stand here and say the following in this tone of voice, except what you want. But you begin by asking, as you put it, uh, you know, what's what's the goal here? Because you say you want your child to be happy and ethical and caring and so on. But is that consistent with what you're doing on a given Thursday evening? Because it sure looks like your actions and even the questions you ask of parenting experts are geared to getting obedience, right? As opposed to how is my intervention or my lack of intervention here going to help? And of course, I'm a parent of two children, and I know what it's like to just want to get the kid into or out of the damn tub or car, but most of the time we need to be thinking beyond that short term to thinking about the long-term goals. We need to be moving from a doing-to approach to a working with approach. We need to be thinking about the question, not how do I get my kid to do what I want, but what does my child need? And how can I help to meet those needs. So speaking in those broad senses, we then have to adapt, given what's going on right now, and who my child is, and what the situation calls for, in a way where we're doing a lot less telling and a lot more asking, where we're doing imaginatively perspective taking, as the psychologists say, which is thinking about what it's like from the child's point of view, listening to what I'm saying in a situation like this. And, and I'll end with this point, moving beyond and beneath a focus on mere behavior. So, my my rule of thumb is that the value of a parenting resource is inversely proportional to the number of times it contains the word behavior. Because if you're focusing on the behavior, which is the action that you can see and measure, the stuff on the surface, you are losing sight of the values and motives and reasons that underlie and inform behavior. You're missing the child. As soon as you frame it in terms of how do I get this behavior for my kid or get rid of that behavior for my kid, you're invariably going to go back to some variation of punishments or rewards, because that's how we stamp out or reinforce behavior. But if you're looking at broader questions about who your child is and can become, that can lead you to richer, more respectful, and uh I think effective ways of being with your child that help to reach the long-term goals because you're not just trying to buy or eliminate a behavior.

Jon @WholeParent 35:07

That is an incredible way to end. I have so many more things that I want to say. I'm just thinking about like Mr. Rogers on the code. I've got your podcast. I know. I'm gonna probably go on after this conversation, but I just want to make sure that I say thank you, thank you, thank you, not to reward you for being on my podcast, but to just say I am so incredibly grateful and appreciative for what you have shared with the listeners today, and honestly, just what you've shared with me. I feel like I have become a better parent uh just in thinking about things in these terms. I think I'm gonna go back and read unconditional parenting again. It's on my shelf behind me. Um, and if you need or would like a copy of that book, please make sure that you go down to the show notes if you're listening to this and get a copy. Thank you again so much, Alfie Cone.

SPEAKER_00 35:52

Thank you. I appreciate it.

Jon @WholeParent 35:59

Thank you for your time listening to the whole parent podcast today. I hope you got something out of it. I have a couple quick favors to ask of you as we end the episode. The first one is to jump over on whatever podcast platform that you are listening to right now and rate this show five stars. You'll notice there are a lot of five star ratings on this show, whether that's on Spotify or Apple Music or Apple Podcasts. We have a ton of five-star ratings and it helps our podcast get out to more people than almost any other parenting podcast out there. And so it's a really quick thing that you can do if you have 15 or 20 seconds, and if you have an additional 30 seconds, I'd love to read a review from you. I read all the reviews that come through. If you particularly like one part of the podcast or you like when I talk about something or whatever, imagine that you're writing that review directly to me. The second thing that you can do is go and send this episode to somebody in your life who you think could use it. Think about all the parents in your life. Think about your friends, your family members who could use a little bit of help parenting. It's vulnerable to share an episode of a parenting podcast with them. I get it. But imagine how much better your life is as a result of listening to this podcast, of following me on social media, of getting the emails that I send out. You can share that with someone else too. And so I encourage you, just go over, shoot them a quick text, share this episode with them, or share another episode that you feel like is particularly relevant to them. The last thing you can do is go down to the link show notes at the bottom. And like I said, in the mid-roll, you can subscribe on Substack. It's$5 a month or$50 a year. Uh I don't have that many people doing it. And yet the people who are doing it have made this possible. And so if you like this episode, if you like all of the episodes, if you want them to continue, the only way that I can keep making them is through donor support. Free will donations to the podcast. Please, please, please, please, if you're thinking about the end of this year, if you're thinking about your charitable giving, I know I've got a 501c3. You can't write it off on your taxes, but if you'd like to give me a little gift to just say thank you for what you've done this year, the best way to do that is over on Substack. Again,$5 a month,$50 a year. It's not gonna break the bank. It's probably less than you spend on coffee every week. Definitely less than you spend on coffee every week. Maybe uh less than you spend on almost anything, right? Five bucks a month is very, very small, but it goes a long way when it's multiplied by all of the different people who listen to the podcast sending that over to me. I get all of that money. It's just my way of being able to produce the podcast, spend money on equipment, spend money on subscription fees, hosting fees for the podcast, all of that stuff. Email server fees, all that. So if you're willing to do that, I would love it. Thank you so much for listening to this episode, and I'll see you next time.