The Whole Parent Podcast
The Whole Parent Podcast
The invisible thing killing your marriage (with Eve Rodsky) #38
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Why does it feel like one partner carries the weight of managing the home and kids while the other thinks everything is equal? If you've ever felt exhausted by the invisible labor of parenting—or if you've ever felt like nothing you do measures up to your partner’s expectations—this episode is for you.
In this episode of The Whole Parent Podcast, I sit down with Eve Rodsky, author of Fair Play, to unpack the division of labor in parenting. We dive into the mental load, the emotional labor, and why so many families fall into patterns where one parent (usually mom) takes on the bulk of the work—often without even realizing it.
Eve shares the Fair Play framework, a system that helps couples move from frustration and resentment to true partnership in running a household. We’ll talk about:
✔️ Why "helping" isn't the same as "ownership"
✔️ How assumptions about gender roles silently shape our parenting dynamics
✔️ The hidden labor of planning, managing, and executing daily family life
✔️ How to start creating a more equitable system
✔️ The simple mindset shift that can transform your relationship
If you’ve ever caught yourself saying “I have to do everything around here” and “I shouldn’t have to ask for help”, OR "My partner doesn't trust me" and "I can't do anything right...." this episode will change the way you think about parenting, partnership, and fairness in your home.
If this episode resonated with you, share it with a partner or a friend. Let’s change the way we divide the mental load—one family at a time.
There's a moment in almost every two-parent household with kids, a moment that's so universal that if you close your eyes you can probably almost hear it. It happens somewhere between that first sip of coffee, the scramble to get out the door and one of the parents usually mom realizes that she's the only one who knows where the soccer cleats are. Maybe it's going to be dad who's actually responsible for driving her to soccer practice that day, but will he remember if he doesn't get a text from mom? Will he remember that on the way to soccer practice he probably needs to stop somewhere to get dinner? And who will remember to grab the soccer ball on the way to the car? And what about the fact that today is also pajama day for her little brother? Or that somebody needs to text the babysitter? And then there's the moment, much later, when the kids are finally in bed, when a different realization sets in. It's a slow, creeping frustration. How did we get here? Why does it feel to one partner like everything's equal, like the responsibilities of parenting and managing a home are shared, while the other partner feels like they're carrying all the weight?
Speaker 1:Maybe you've had that moment too. Maybe it was after the third time that you had to remind your partner to schedule that pediatrician appointment. That wasn't just going to magically happen on its own. Maybe it was the time that you came home from work to find your partner smiling at you because they had quote emptied the dishwasher for you. Maybe it was a text that you received from your partner. I'm surprised that you didn't get blueberries. All right, we got to go. It's time, do you need?
Speaker 1:cookies no no, no, leave them. We don't have time for cookies right now. In sociology there's a term for this. It's called the invisible labor of parenting, and studies show it's not just about who does the thing, it's about the mental load, the planning, the anticipating, the emotional labor of keeping a family running.
Speaker 1:And here's the kicker, even in couples who think that they're doing things equally. Even when both partners work full-time, the research is clear Moms, in the overwhelming majority of cases, still do more, and yet in almost every couple there's a different version of this same conversation.
Speaker 2:I feel like I have to do everything around here.
Speaker 1:I help just as much as everybody else.
Speaker 2:But I shouldn't have to ask you to help.
Speaker 1:Does that sound familiar to you? In today's episode, we're talking about division of labor and parenting, how the work of running a family gets divided, why it's rarely as equal as we think and, most importantly, what we can actually do to fix it. If you've ever felt exhausted by feeling like you have to carry the mental load of your household, or if you've ever felt exhausted by feeling like nothing you do can ever measure up to your partner's expectations, this episode is probably for you. As I've been digging into season two here on the Whole Parent Podcast, you've noticed that the episodes have changed a little bit. Most of the episodes in season two are structured differently than the episodes in season one. The solo episodes are much more focused and they have a lot higher production quality, and the episodes with guests feel more like those guests are contributing to a conversation that we're having rather than you just listening into a conversation that I'm having with someone else. I'm really committed to this approach going forward because I think it makes for a much more interesting and engaging podcast. There are so many other amazing parenting podcasts out there that function as sort of a host and guest discussing a given topic of their expertise. What I felt like is lacking in the parenting world is a podcast that's really designed like a podcast More focused, more storytelling and just kind of better overall structure.
Speaker 1:A lot of the episodes in season two were recorded with this new structure in mind, but I still have a few that were recorded in the old format. Some of them I've been able to adapt and make them feel a little bit more like season two, but some of them just don't really fit into that mold, which I actually think is okay, and this episode today is more like that. Today on the episode, my guest is Eve Rodsky, bestselling author of Fair Play, which is a book all about how we can divide labor more equitably in marriages. Obviously, a lot of that labor has to do with the work of parenting, and Eve has even told me that that is the point in most relationships, when the relationship starts to fragment and break down. You'll hear from her story that that was the point in her relationship the blueberries text, a moment that birthed the fair play way.
Speaker 2:I think the origin story is important and what I always say is that this started with a text that my husband, seth, sent me that just said very simply I'm surprised you didn't get blueberries. But the I'm surprised you didn't get blueberries text happened within context. I had a newborn baby in the house and a toddler at home and I was actually that day that I got the I'm surprised you didn't get blueberries text. I was actually racing to get my toddler, zach, at his toddler transition program, which in America, you know, costs our entire salaries and lasts about like 10 minutes. And there was a baby at home. So I had a breast pump and a diaper bag on the passenger seat of my car. I had gifts for the newborn baby, ben, to return in the backseat of my car. I had a client contract in my lap because I had left the corporate workforce. Now I say I was forced out because I actually asked to work from home on Fridays and they said no. And then I went to this toddler transition program over those couple of days before I got the text from Seth and what I noticed was that my name tag just said Zach's mom. These are the people that are supposed to be supporting me, but they don't even know my name.
Speaker 2:So at that time in my life I had a newborn baby and a toddler. I was being abandoned by my workplace that didn't want me there, or that's how I felt and I was being abandoned by my community my new school community that didn't even know my name. And then, on top of that, my husband sends me this text. I'm surprised you didn't get blueberries. And so I remember pulling over to the side of the road and just starting to sob, sobbing for my career and for my new identity as just a role somebody's parent but really sobbing more for the fact that I was the fulfiller of Seth's smoothie needs and the fact that I was living a statistic that I didn't even know at the time, which is that women married to men shoulder two thirds or more of what it takes to run a home and family.
Speaker 2:And I think that I wrote Fair Play because I never wanted any woman or any partner really to get to the place that I was in that day on the side of the road. It's a lot higher since we've been doing our studies over 10 years, but two-thirds was the statistic at the time, in 2011. We have our first quantitative study that shows that those that have not been introduced to Fair Play. Things have not gotten better for those families and, in fact, because of intensive parenting and all the things that the Surgeon General is talking about the stress on parents it could actually be getting worse. Fair Play came out in October 1st 2019. And I got to go to the World Economic Forum in January of 2020, where I said that we're one crisis away from losing 30 to 40 years of women's labor force participation, and I think why Fair Play became a movement was because I was able to say that in January 2020, when we had no inkling that there was going to be a pandemic that actually showed us that we would lose it within one month.
Speaker 1:I just want to interrupt here for a moment and say that this has to change. My conversation with Eve is going to continue, but what she just said about two-thirds of probably a gross underestimation of the disproportionate load that women carry in relationships, especially parenting and domestic relationships, as compared to their male counterparts. If you're looking for further evidence of this, just go back and listen to some of the news stories about virtual schooling in the early days of the 2020 COVID pandemic. Because of the stay-at-home orders, a ton of domestic labor and childcare responsibilities were just dropped onto families and, according to surveys at the time and researchers, over 80% of that increased burden was taken on by women. So not only are they doing two-thirds of the invisible labor at home on a daily basis. When a crisis happens and a ton of unexpected new responsibilities are dropped onto a household, women take almost all of it.
Speaker 2:After the blueberries breakdown. How did I end up getting to the place where I knew that this was the same shit, different decade problem? Well, it turns out that the thing I'm talking about has a name. It's been called the second shift, it's been called emotional labor. It's been called the second shift, it's been called emotional labor, it's been called the mental load, but my favorite term was actually invisible work, and it was coined in 1986.
Speaker 2:And the idea was that women will always and continue to shoulder the invisible work of the home because it's unpaid and in a society that values pay a capitalist patriarchy men are going to take the time, either take it on leisure or things that make money, and women are going to have to shoulder the rest. And so that was an interesting piece for me, john, because what I thought I could do and this was very naive at the time was, as a lawyer and a mediator, I thought I could look at this through an organizational management lens and basically say to myself well, all you have to do is what Peter Drucker says about organizations that you don't manage but you don't measure. That's what I did. I started with the should I do? Spreadsheet, where I started to make the invisible, visible. And then I would ask men and women about those 2000 items that I put on that spreadsheet John who does groceries in your house, john who takes the kids to school, john who cleans?
Speaker 2:And the biggest problem was that the answer was we both do. And so we got into a data problem, because if it's true that women shoulder two-thirds or more of what it takes to run a home and family, and then when I ask individual couples and they tell me they both do it, how was I actually going to get to the right answer? And that answer came through asking the most important question I've asked in the past 10 years, and that question was how does mustard get in your refrigerator? That's how I ended up getting to the Fair Play system, because I asked it in 17 countries over the past 10 years and what we found was that women married to men in 17 countries, even in the Nordic countries like Norway and Sweden, the places where we think things are more egalitarian.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Men were helping for sure the both of the groceries, but this is what was happening were helping for sure, the both of the groceries, but this is what was happening. Women were noticing that their second son, johnny, likes yellow mustard, not spicy Dijon with the protein, otherwise he chokes. Then that woman was actually the one monitoring the mustard for when it ran low and getting stakeholder buy-in from her family for what they needed from the grocery store. And then men were stepping in to go purchase the yellow mustard, but they were bringing home spicy Dijon every time. And so then women start to say to me how am I going to trust my husband with my living will? The dude can't even bring home the right type of mustard.
Speaker 2:So once you looked at that as an organizational problem of women do conception, women do the planning and men step into the execution you can actually solve for that organizational problem. Because that in an organization that's not the home and the workplace. If someone does conception and planning and someone else does execution, you call that a psychological safety fail. That organization doesn't have accountability and trust, the two things you need actually to be a good partner and a good parent. And so that's what Fair Play does. It solves for that problem by helping parents and partners take ownership of the full conception, planning and execution of a task, so that there is not an organizational failure around expectations.
Speaker 1:I think that this is such an important point because because when you listed those things like who goes to school, who does this the difference between and and I am by no means flawless in this, but the difference between just taking full ownership of, like I'm doing, drop-off now for my son great, and if I can't do drop-off, I have to make sure that someone else is going to do drop-off.
Speaker 1:Yes and like there's no like, oh well, then she'll just do it Like I communicate. Like you have to do drop-off today because I have a dentist appointment. That's actually today. But when it comes to leaving the house, I still packed the lunch. I still made sure that he was ready to go at the time that he was ready to go. I still made sure that he was ready to go at the time that he was ready to go. I still made sure, like shoes closed, he has to bring certain things to school. He goes to forest school.
Speaker 2:He has to go forest.
Speaker 1:He goes to forest school, so like it's more than just like a backpack, like he doesn't have to remember his homework, cause there's not a lot of that, but he does have to remember his galoshes, like his waiters you know, so, like, like the waiters are still sitting there, I'm like wait, wait, wait, here's the waiters. And just the idea that, like I know that, like getting him to school is still my job, even though someone else is doing it, it's still my job.
Speaker 2:Put that clip on repeat for other men for the rest of your life and you will be doing, you'll be a cultural warrior forever, because that is something that is so simple yet so still profoundly misunderstood. This is why Fair Play became a love letter to men, because I actually think and this was very controversial to say to a lot of women that the lack of psychological safety that men reported to me in 17 countries in their home is just as big of a problem as the mental load for women. What do I mean by that? When you just come in at execution, which means you're a helper to the leader, not a partner, it's infantilizing B, it's, as we said, there's very little psychological safety. And here's why Because I don't like the word nagging. I think that's a terrible word, but I like the word. I call the rat, like nobody wants their homes infested with rats.
Speaker 2:A rat is a random assignment of the task, a random assignment of a task and in 17 countries, like I said, even the egalitarian ones men told me that they did not feel always safe in their homes because they couldn't get anything right. When you are that person bringing home the spicy Dijon and you get a rolling of your eyes like Jesus again, like you don't know how to do anything. It does not feel good to some. Anybody's ego want to do that again. I'm not blaming women because again, the assumptions around gender are the reasons why women have had to hold the conception and planning the mental load in the first place. And that idea of getting if you're so overwhelmed, get help. We've been using the word help to women for so, so long as opposed to get partnership. But I do feel I feel for men all the time, because what they say to me is that they were tasked with bringing the flowers to recital and they brought carnations. And their wife looks at them and says no one would ever bring carnations. Like what's wrong with you? So there's a lot of times where I feel like the rat.
Speaker 2:The random assignment of a task is really really, really detrimental to men as well. But the way that you get to a situation where you're not failing at the execution, it takes work. You have to have those. Why conversations? And I'll give you an example, a reverse example. My husband is in charge of meal planning, or you know he'll. He'll be in charge of the conception planning, whether he has, you know, our babysitter. Help us to make that meal, or whether he orders it in when I take it over sometimes. Oftentimes, it'll be like let's have donuts for dinner and what.
Speaker 2:Seth said to me was that you believe in a minimum standard of care. That's a big piece of fair play having this idea of a minimum standard of care. What is the minimum we can both do to make each other happy around this task, seth, when he said you take over meals, when you were in charge of meals he said to me the only green on our plates can't be just like a Lucky Charms shamrock.
Speaker 1:So I think that, like one of the things about parenting that's such a challenge and that you just express so clearly and fair play, with relationship to like other family dynamics, particularly obviously husband-wife partnership right, or just partnership, I should say is that there are all of these unconscious assumptions of like what the one side is is feeling, thinking, doing absolutely.
Speaker 1:And that's where, like, from a parenting perspective, I go, I'm reading fair play and I'm going, man, I have absolutely struggled with this stuff in this book, like I've absolutely struggled with the gender norms. I've absolutely struggled with the just like assumed, like my wife has also struggled with, especially the pretending that I just know what she means and like you know. Like that I know, and part of that is that I have an ADHD brain and she doesn't, and so she's just like I don't get why you don't just do stuff Right. So so I get all that, but then I go my gosh wait. We're doing this with our kids. Like, get all that, but then I go, my gosh wait. We're doing this with our kids Like we're assuming that they have the capacity, we're assuming that they know what we want they're assuming that they know what we need, and so like that I feel like is is a big piece, Absolutely.
Speaker 2:I pretty much grew up as a latchkey kid living solely on bodega food and McDonald's.
Speaker 1:Yep, yep, yep, and, and I think, well, and that's so, so, that's so, you're getting to it right.
Speaker 1:We have to appreciate that we're all coming to this partnership, this parenting relationship, with different expectations, different goals in some cases, even if there are shared values, oftentimes different goals, different expectations, and so my example always of how I fall woefully short as a husband is that I do not see clutter and mess. I don't see it, and it's because partially it's become because of my neurodivergence, but partially it's because I grew up in an incredibly cluttered messy house and so everything being kind of in the general vicinity of where it is and like you vacuumed one room like that's really clean, and for my wife it's like that is disgusting because her house growing up like there was no dust.
Speaker 1:There was no dust, and so there's also. It's not like, oh, one person's not trying and I love that you said that right Like it's not that one person's not trying. It's also that we have to be clear about our expectations.
Speaker 2:Successful organizations have two things accountability and trust. So I'll give you an example about the garbage. When Seth took over ownership of the garbage, he really understood this term Once I started to develop the Fair Place system and understood that that was the data, that we were failing at the both trap. We weren't really getting at the fact that women were holding this cognitive labor and men were helping with execution. I gave Seth garbage, but for the first I would say, two months I was like his garbage stalker.
Speaker 2:I would follow him like a shadow around the kitchen saying you know when are you going to be taking out the garbage, until he had to sit me down and say, look, this is not working. I'm not going to take out the garbage every second of every day. So I had to sit him down back to that. Why that? You just said earlier about what your house looked like growing up and say to Seth, all right, let me just give you some context for why I'm maybe your garbage stalker.
Speaker 2:I grew up in a hoarder's house and the biggest memory I have of growing up was that I have a disabled brother and he would want like water at night, and so I would like help him. I'd put him to bed. My mother worked nights and I remember this was my routine. If he needed water and he really wanted me to get it, I'd say fine. So I'd go into the kitchen. The light was already off. I'd have to close my eyes in our sort of small kitchen in the Lower East Side of New York City and turn on the light and wait for the cockroaches to scatter until I would get, and then so just they would be gone and then I'd go get the water.
Speaker 2:So for me, the idea of seeing even a banana peel out of a trash bag is really you know a lot about me, right, and not Seth. And so I think when he understood that, he still said to me I'm not going to be taking out the garbage every hour, but he did promise me that garbage would go out once a day and that a liner would go back in the bag. I think once I started to see that accountability and trust that he was doing that.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of accountability and trust that are built back. I hate the term default parent, like with a fiery passion.
Speaker 2:Well, we call it she-fault. Parent in the Fair.
Speaker 1:Play world. Yes, well, yeah, yes, yes, you have the she-fault, like. That's just what it is right. I hate the term default parent and the reason why I hate it is twofold. One, I think if you are the default parent, like I understand that you may have been pressed into that role based on society, based on your partner, but to stay there when you know that this is one of the great joys of life, you actually reduced and Absolutely Like, the life satisfaction of your partner is being harmed.
Speaker 1:I'm not I'm gonna use this term very loosely by your selfishness of saying I am going to take care of all of this. And I don't mean selfish as in I'm doing what I want. I mean selfish as in I am the self and I am in charge of this, and so that's number one. And if you're the default parent, like and I had to get into this with my wife, we got kind of reversed for a moment in time. She was still doing more than 50% of the parenting, but I felt like I had to bail her out If you don't have the concept of default parent, is that one parent is no longer responsible, and I think that that is like one of the worst things. One of the worst dynamics a parent pair can get into that one person feels that they're not really responsible.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, but they only get into that, john, if they don't have the three things. That is a secret formula that we find in fair play couples, which is boundaries, and the boundaries is nexus systems, which is what we've been talking about so far, and the last is communication, because when you don't have boundaries and systems and communication, what you do have are people who become defaults because they use three toxic words that never work, and those usually are. We're going to figure it out. Nobody figures things out. So, if you believe me that those are toxic words, what, instead, you want to replace with we're going to figure it out which often leads to gender expectations and usually women being the default parent. But again, it happens to men too, and they also feel the same resentment that women feel when they're stuck in that role.
Speaker 2:What we like to say is you take the system, which means, instead of a default parent, there are owners of tasks and you can redeal those tasks. As John was saying, when he can't transport his kid to school, he redeals it with full ownership to another person. There is a reason we use the card metaphor, because it shows that things can be fluid. You can redeal cards, you can change things up. If you're the default parent today, it doesn't have to stay that way. Of course, I was the default parent the day that I had the breakdown about blueberries. Not only was I the fulfiller of Seth's smoothie needs, but I was the holder of probably 88 of these cards, which was all that were in play at the time, because some of them were not relevant, aka things like pets. But what you can do and the beauty is that when you change this figure it out assumption, where I can't talk about the home because it's too triggering, you move into, I can communicate about the home. This is a communication shift. I can create systems for the home that can change at any point because they're fluid and we can talk about who owns what tasks. And on top of it this is the boundary piece I value my partner's time.
Speaker 2:I will never, john, as you, as my partner, I will tell you, I will never assume that you're the one to pick up the kids from school because, a my job is more flexible or your job is more flexible, john, I can tell you, as my partner, I will give you the respect that I will never assume, because you make less money than me, that you're the one who has to do the tasks.
Speaker 2:I can promise you, as a partner, that I will never say, john, in the time it takes me to tell you how to clean the floors, I'll do it myself. John, I can give you the respect to say, yes, we're both nurse practitioners with PhDs, but I can find the time where I will say you're better at focusing on one task at a time, so I will not give you that opportunity. These are all toxic messages we give each other for why we don't communicate about the home. If you can hold your boundary and say I will not say those things, because those are expectations that I have no idea whether John actually believes, and I will come to the table and say I value you, john, as my partner and I know you value me, regardless of how much money I make, regardless of my gender, then all of a sudden we can come to the system and the communication in a way that's us against the cards as opposed to I have to fight for my leisure time in my right against you.
Speaker 1:So the problem, though, becomes no matter which partner it is, one of them is like I don't trust you to parent, Like I don't trust you to discipline, whether it's social media or something else I actually just don't trust you. What do you do when you're in that situation? Like do we throw the cards out and just give up? Like how does that work?
Speaker 2:That's a great question, john. I think, as with everything right, it's very futile to try to change somebody else. Usually. Typically, you have to make internal changes for yourself. You have to make internal changes for yourself.
Speaker 2:I will say that it was very, very alarming to me here at the outcome of the question you asked. When I asked a lot of women what they did in those situations, they would say to me I have three magic words for you, eve. I have three magic words for you, eve, that have solved all of my problems, and I'd be eagerly. What are those three words that solved all your problems? Often it was court order, custody or that allowed them to have finally a full partner when they had somebody who was taking over. Now again, as somebody who grew up with a single mother and a child of divorce, I was hoping I still see, and this is the beauty of it when I started this. But this is the beauty of what Fair Play became. Fair Play is sort of like divorce or marry people, because it leads to the same outcomes of ownership, which is really good, without hopefully you know the divorce piece of you coming to it, you know early enough. But I want to just say something about changing yourself and what you just said.
Speaker 2:Hardest thing for me to hear, john, is what you just said I don't trust my partner so I'm not going to involve them anymore. It's very, very painful to hear that, especially when there's a child involved, typically the way it manifests is somebody will say that to me. I don't trust them anymore. We've had these conversations. I always end up with John not putting that extra dish back in the sink, so I might as well just do it myself, but I realize it's happening there that that person is saying that they've given up on communicating with that person. So typically I'd like for that person to start there. So you're not even close getting to the system yet. You are, john and me, and we're already educated in this work and we just need a tune-up. Yes, go straight to the cards, either as a way to tell your stories or start the system.
Speaker 2:We have tons of free resources on our website that hopefully John will link to in the show note. We have a book, we have a documentary. There's lots of ways to implement the system. But if you aren't there yet and John's question is that trust question you have to look back at what happened to your communication with your partner.
Speaker 2:One thing during the pandemic really really felt painful and this is a story we can end on because it was really painful, but I think it's really important. There was a Facebook group. The Facebook group was called the Reasons I Hate my Partner During the Pandemic. So that's what they said. That's what this Facebook group said. Within that Facebook group there was a woman who says my partner dies of COVID won't be because of the disease, it'll be because of me. So I reached out to this woman or my team did and we said hey, can we ask you a couple questions? And what this woman said to us was we said hey, you, we ask you a couple questions. And what this woman said to us was we said hey, how do you communicate with your partner about domestic life? She said, with no irony, I don't communicate with my partner about domestic life. This is my safe space, so I just want to reflect on that.
Speaker 2:Quickly threatening to murder her partner in front of 27,000 strangers felt safer to her than communicating directly with her partner. We all get there at some point. It felt safer to me to cry by myself on the side of the road and bang on my steering wheel than to tell Seth how painful it was to get his text. I'm surprised you didn't get blueberries and what it meant to me. We can't let it get that bad. You have to start investing in communication.
Speaker 1:Any final words for people who want to connect with you more or want to start Fair Play. Where do they start.
Speaker 2:I would just say at this point just start where you are, start where you are and the most important thing, which is so in line with, I think, the parent message there should be zero guilt and shame for, wherever you are, the situation you're in the situation that we were all put in because we have a lack of structural support for parents in the United States. So things should feel hard. Because they are hard Doesn't mean we can't change them. One partnership at a time. While you're changing things, one partnership at a time, john, I'm fighting for all parents. We have a Fair Play Policy Institute. We are fighting for paid leave. We are fighting for access to child care, so there's no child care deserts in this country. We're fighting for parents. While we do this, we can change dynamics, one partnership at a time, and the more people come to the table looking at their organization through a lens of not 50-50 equality, partnership and ownership, the better.
Speaker 1:Thank you to Eva Rodsky for joining us for today's episode of the Whole Parent Podcast. You can find all of her links and resources, including to her book Fair Play, down in the episode description. If you like this episode of the Whole Parent Podcast, make sure that you go and like and subscribe wherever you're listening to it, and also consider getting my audio book, which came out on January 28th 2025, called Punishment-Free Parenting. It's a step-by-step, brain-based guide to make parenting a heck of a lot easier, so that you won't have to struggle as much with those cards as always. If you have a person in your life in this case anyone, whether they have kids or not who's in a partnership, make sure that you share this episode with them personally. Just shoot it to them in a text. Tell them that you liked it, that you listened to it, that it might help. It's the best way that you can help spread this message. See you next week.
