The Whole Parent Podcast
The Whole Parent Podcast
Punishment-Free Parenting with Dr. Tina Payne Bryson #22
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Do we need to punish our kids to be effective parents?
That's exactly what Dr. Tina Payne Bryson and I navigate through in this enriching discussion on punishment-free parenting. By distinguishing between discipline as a means to teach, rehearse, and impart skills and punishment as an alternatively counterproductive reaction, we illuminate a path where parents can regulate their emotions and approach each day with a fresh, constructive mindset.
Embark on a journey with us into the essence of 'whole parenting,' where the well-being of both parent and child is in the spotlight. This episode strips away the veneer of parenting perfection, as we share candid stories and acknowledge the slip-ups that accompany the challenge of raising our young.
We lay out the blueprint for fostering secure attachments and resilience in our kids, underlining the power of being present, consistent, and approachable, while recognizing the unique dynamics of parenting through various stages, especially the teenage years.
Wrapping up, Tina and I probe the delicate dance of discipline, where the art of being both firm and flexible fosters an environment ripe for our children to learn and make good decisions.
The insights shared here are about more than mere techniques; they celebrate the precious relationship between parent and child and offer a fresh perspective on parenting with purpose and joy.
Dr. Bryson's wisdom coupled with personal reflections make this episode a guiding light for parents aspiring to create a nurturing and supportive space for growth.
But I think before we even get to the consequences thing, we have to remember that if the whole point and purpose is to teach and build skills so they become self-disciplined, then they have to be in a state in their nervous system in which they can learn. So that's why, in our no drama discipline approach, we really talk about the idea that the brain is either in a reactive state where it can't learn this is what tantrums look like, this is what disrespectful backtalk looks like. So either the brain's in a reactive state or it's in a receptive state in which it's ready to learn.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:So the first step is is my child ready to learn and am I ready to teach? If the answer is no to either of those questions. It's not the right time, and so, in the name of discipline and by that I mean teaching and skill building the first thing we have to do is get our kid receptive, and the way we do that is through connection, relationship, regulation, time, space, nurture. Whatever it takes, it's a brand new day. Wake up every morning and say it's a brand new day. Take a good day, make it great, Okay.
Jon @wholeparent:Hello and welcome to the whole parent podcast. My name is John, I am the host of the whole parent podcast and I am at whole parent on all of the social medias. Uh, if you are just joining this podcast for the first time, maybe this is the first episode that you've ever found. This is a podcast all about parenting, but it's not a podcast that's going to make you feel worse about your parenting journey. It's a podcast that's going to give you excellent, evidence-based tips that are going to help you parent with confidence and raise resilient kids. And so, if you're looking to upgrade your parenting, not because you feel ashamed of the way that you've been parenting, not because you're uh, you know I'm stoking your fear or anything like that, but just because you want to have a community of people that you're learning alongside, myself included this is the podcast for you. So, if you're not already subscribed, if you haven't already gone in and rated the show and, uh, written a review, if you're a regular listener and you've listened to a bunch of episodes, please you help this message get out to so many more parents. This episode today is probably my favorite episode that I have ever recorded, and that is because I get to talk to my personal parenting hero about my favorite topic in parenting. It has been a dream getting to do this episode and I have recorded it and now I'm coming back and recording the intro and it's just been spinning around in my head for days the stuff that we talked about man. I feel like I'm bearing the lead here. This episode is about punishment-free parenting. That's the title of this episode. You're going to hear me talk so much more about this topic in general, but this episode is my first episode about punishment-free parenting and I get to have my first episode with Punishment Free Parenting with Dr Tina Payne Bryson, the author who co-authored, along with Dan Siegel, so many of my favorite parenting books, including probably my all-time favorite parenting book, the Whole Brain Child. They've co-authored books together, including the Whole Brain Child, no Drama, discipline and so many more, and so we talk a little bit about that in this episode. But we also just talk about why punishment is an ineffective way to help your kids grow into resilient, healthy adults, and so if you are a parent who has come from a punishment paradigm, you maybe were punished growing up, like so many parents or so many kids and who are now parents. If you are wondering whether that punishment was what you needed or whether it was helpful, or whether there's another way to parent.
Jon @wholeparent:That's this episode. We talk all about it, and so, whether you're tuning in for the first time or whether you have been around and you've listened to this podcast before, welcome to one of the best episodes in this very young podcast Punishment, pre-parenting with Tina Payne Bryson. Welcome everybody to the Whole Parent Podcast. I am super, super excited today that we have Dr Tina Payne Bryson PhD although you don't say doctor and PhD at the same time. Tina, you are the author of two of my very favorite parenting books the Whole Brain Child and no Drama Discipline.
Jon @wholeparent:Welcome to the podcast.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:Thank you so much. I'm so honored to be here. I'm such a big fan of your work and what you're doing and the impact you're having, so I can't wait to have a conversation with you.
Jon @wholeparent:That's like the craziest thing that I've ever heard that you're a fan of my work, so I'm going to try and not fanboy out too much.
Jon @wholeparent:But yeah, we're talking about a bunch of stuff today, but especially we're talking about punishment-free parenting, which is a term that I have not said this to anybody else and maybe I'm going to get in trouble with my publisher because the official title of my book which I have just now finally turned in the final copy of the manuscript, although it's not quite through copy editing yet the title that I have been working under is punishment-free parenting. So this is what my passion is all about, and you're one of my favorite people on the internet and in books to talk about this with, and so I'm going to ask you to do something that you've. I want our conversation to be kind of unique and not just exactly what you've been on so many podcasts and talked about this stuff. But I do want to define two terms here, because I feel like we have to begin from this place. If we're going to talk about punishment-free parenting, and the two terms are discipline and punishment, how are those terms different? How can we use those terms differently? And, yeah, just go with that.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:Well, I'd love to hear your we can co-create a definition, because you and I are very, very consilient in our lens. Well, first of all, when Dan and I were writing no drama discipline, a colleague of ours who we really respected, another parenting author, said you know, knew we were writing a book about discipline. And she said please don't use the word discipline in the title of your book. And we said well, why?
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:And she said, because when you say discipline, people immediately think, um, punishment. They immediately you know that's, that's connoted in that word. And so Dan and I were like yeah, but the meaning of the word? If you go back to the original meaning of the word, it means to teach. And really, when we talk about it from a brain perspective, when we're talking about repeated experiences in a brain that's plastic and moldable from repeated experiences we also add the idea of it's not the discipline is to teach and to build skills. And so Dan and I were like let's do something really bold and let's not only use the word discipline intentionally in the title of our book, but let's reclaim the original meaning of that word, which is to teach and to build skills.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:Now, punishment is really to make the child or I guess obviously you can punish your spouse too. So punishment is really about making the other person have a really unpleasant experience just in response to what they did. It's not at all based on teaching, it's not at all about basic on building skills. It's actually to create a sense of dread, pain, discomfort, emotional distress in order to kind of give build in the idea that if the, if this, if I make them feel terrible, then they won't repeat the behavior. But that's actually not how discipline works. So that's you can clearly tell I'm not a big fan of punishment myself either. And that's not to say that. And notice, I never use the word consequences as part of the conversation of punitiveness or punishment, but punishment how would you define punishment?
Jon @wholeparent:Yeah. So you know, I really appreciate everything you just said. And getting back to the original sense of the word for discipline, you know my background being not in psychology or developmental psychology but in part ancient languages and specific ancient Koine Greek, from which we get the word discipline. I really appreciate that because you don't have that sense in Koine Greek that there are punitive actions being taken, it's more of the follower, right, so you have the person who's the teacher and then you have the disciple, or, from which we get the word discipline. So I really appreciate the way in which you reframe that and I would agree with that. I also agree with your friend who said these words are synonymous, right, discipline. Discipline means punishment and I have to go through that because I think, like you said, unless you are bold enough to call your book no drama, discipline, which I have sitting next to me because I'm going to read a quote by the way unless you're bold enough.
Jon @wholeparent:discipline was actually one of our considered titles, so that just shows you, how much no punishment, free discipline, wow, so like, but this is the thing, right, so so okay. So how I would define punishment, like, let me not like go super adhd here and go way off the rails. I did, I did take the meds, so I'm like we'll stay on track, but like I think for me punishment is is anything that's retributive, right? So like if, if you're looking for retribution, then it's gonna be punitive. And so, whether it's the overemphasis of consequences which, again, I have an entire chapter in my book that's about consequences, so it's not like consequences-free parenting, I think would be basically the critique of the modern gentle parenting movement, I think, some of which is justified, which is because we don't really have a right, we don't have a, we don't have a term for, we don't know what gentle parenting is right, it's not a scientific term.
Jon @wholeparent:So because it's not a scientific term.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:I think it's honestly very much synonymous with permissive parenting. I I get put in the gentle parenting category all the time and some of my books were kind of some of the foundational pieces of gentle parenting. I don't accept like that's not how I identify at all.
Jon @wholeparent:Um, because I oh man, you're going to get so canceled You're going to get so I made this video. I made this video last week, tina, like I made this video. It's the last video on my account from when we were and I said I'm not a gentle parent because the way in which we define gentle parenting is too like, it's just too permissive, and I don't do that and I'm not about that.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:And people were like well then, you don't know what gentle parenting is, so I'm just no one knows what gentle parenting is because it's a made up thing that's basically kind of glumping a bunch of stuff together. So I think what we know for you know, and we can get into this what we've known for 80 plus years is that kids do best when they have high emotional responsiveness, connectedness, nurturing. I mean I wrote my dissertation on what I'm about to say here many, many, many, many years ago that kids do well when they get that gentle, respectful, connected parent plus and this is the part that gentle parenting often leaves out plus really sturdy, stable boundaries, limits and a grown-up who's really making them feel like. The grown-up knows what's happening and is going to protect them and keep them safe.
Jon @wholeparent:Well and even within those boundaries, flexibility to go up to those boundaries Right, which I think is that's the other side of of my critique of gentle parenting, which is it leads to a gentle childhood, which is exactly the opposite of what you want for your kid, for resilience, right. Like you don't want a kid who, who is so and and and I get where it comes from. Like none of us want our kids to hurt, like none of us want our kid to fall off the slide. The difference is those of us who understand that kids falling off the slide is a natural part of their development and is ultimately a good thing, because when they fall off the slide is a natural part of their development and is ultimately a good thing, because when they fall off the slide, then they're less likely to jump off the second story window. That, like those, that's actually a good process.
Jon @wholeparent:And the kids who have no consequences, whether those are the consequences of their own actions I climbed too high and I couldn't get down like those consequences. Actually teach versus punishment is is saying hey, I am so, and this is an interesting kind of point that I try and make in the book. I'm so. So many parents are so worried about the actual consequences their children will face that they impose a punishment because they're unwilling to see the consequence through. And so so many parents are like I'm afraid that my child will be socially alienated by not sharing, and so I'm going to punish strictly, because that's my own shame and baggage from middle school. And so now I'm acting that out on my seven-year-old and I'm basically assuming that this is, you know, the worst possible scenario. I think you guys were the ones who talked about shark music, right?
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:so like they do, the shark we did talk about it, um, but it came from, uh, the circle of security attachment intervention right, I just want to get credit the circle of security to people's original work yeah, no, for sure, for sure.
Jon @wholeparent:Well, but I think I think, yeah, it's, you guys kind of brought it in the in the parenting, the pop parenting area, right, and so I appreciate that you're that, you're that you don't identify with the term gentle parenting, because I say that and I get like so much push back. Part of it is that my primary work until the book is in social media. So because of that, and it's on social media, and so because of that, I think a's on social media, and so because of that, I think a lot of people are like, hey, you're one of us, come help us redefine this gentle parenting thing. My thing is, I like parenting too much to wed it to a word, that's. That's. That's currently not helping, right it's. It's creating more harm I don't want to say harm, but it's creating more confusion than it's and so it's a little bit different.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:And Aliza Pressman and I, in different conversations, have had conversations about this very thing and and we're like what could we call it? You know we never really came up with anything that great, but I think it was Mona. That was like what if we called it responsive parenting or something?
Jon @wholeparent:like that, that's good. So. So this is why I picked whole parenting. So I just said, look, we could do respectful, we could do connect. These were when we started the account and we were looking for the available handles. It was like connection, responsive, respectful.
Jon @wholeparent:Some of those were our three, and then I landed on whole. And the reason I landed on whole was because I said, look, ultimately this is a holistic approach that also gets to dealing with the parent. And so the thing with responsive parenting is that it still feels to me somewhat child focused and that it's all about how the parent is responding. And so many parents think like I have to fake my way into that. It's all about how the parent is responding, and so many parents think like I have to fake my way into that response because all that matters is that I like do the right thing and it's like no, no, if you don't internalize these principles, like you, you can't fake your way through this. You're going to fall short.
Jon @wholeparent:And so that's why I picked whole. Is because it's kind of a catch-all word. I mean you guys did too for the whole. Is because it's kind of a catch-all word. I mean you guys did too for the whole brain child, right, Like it's a catch-all word and it's talks, and I got it kind of not so much from the whole brain child but from Brene Brown's work of being wholehearted and and so that's what I was like. Oh man, like that, that principle really I, I, I resonate with that. So that's my, that's my contribution. I call it whole parenting because I feel like that. Or in the book, I call it punishment-free parenting, which is I don't like because it defines it by what?
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:it's not, but I think it's so important what you're saying there because you know, throughout all of all of the you know, four books that Dan and I have written together. Um, and I actually have a book coming out in January of 2024, co-authored with a play therapist, called the Way of Play. In all of the books I've written, we always talk about it's not so much what we do but who we are with our children, and so and that's one of the big problems I have with attachment parenting I think there are some beautiful things that attachment parenting supports, but you know, in my book, the Power of Showing Up that I wrote with Dan, you know, one of the things we say is like I often define when I start talking about attachment and attachment science, I say, well, let me start with what it's not. It's not attachment parenting. Attachment parenting is often a checklist of behaviors and attachments never about a checklist of behaviors, and what we do is not as much as important as who we are, and so that's why I really love that.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:You chose whole as your thing and, as you know, in all of my books, at the end of each chapter, dan and I have a section that's about integrating ourselves, or showing up for ourselves, or you know those kinds of things because it does start with us and really we know that when and this is back to the idea of discipline the research is very clear that children learn best through, number one, what they do themselves, so what they practice, what they do, you know what they, you know, put their hands on and actually do themselves. And number two, what is modeled for them and um, and so those two things are part of you know we, who we are and what we do and how whole we are, and also understanding our brokenness I'm going to use that word in response to whole. Our flaws are whatever and that we should always be reflecting on and repairing. Those are all part of what we bring and how into how our children's brains get wired.
Jon @wholeparent:Those are all part of what we bring and how into how our children's brains get wired. Man, I like, honestly, this is probably the most affirming conversation about my book. Like you know the process, there's definitely these moments where you're like, oh man, did I just write a terrible? Maybe you don't have these moments like you're like you can, okay, okay, that makes me feel really good, because, because I just imagine like oh man, how many bestsellers do you have to write until you're like oh no, it's probably no, I'll tell you.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:So I just turned my manuscript in like two months. So I'm like two or three months, you know, ahead of you in terms of manuscript turning ends. Um, on this latest book. And I go through this process every time and my editor at Penguin Random House is like, okay, tina, you're doing that thing where I finished the book, I send it in and I'm like this book sucks. I hate this book. No one's going to ever read this book. I'm not contributing to the conversation at all, like I have all this and I am not. I am not a self, I'm not a negative person like that. I don't beat myself up. I'm not critical of myself typically ever. But then when they send the copy edits back and I get, I read it again. I'm like, oh, it's so good that I get. And then when I do the audio recording, I fall in love with the book. Um and so, uh, it's you're good, you're good, you're good.
Jon @wholeparent:So so I'm, so I'm January, so I'm January 25 as well, so January 25 as well. So so I, so this is my like it just went through and we're now it's going to. It's through the sub edit, it's through the line edit, now it's going to copy. So, like I, I've just had that experience of reading it and going, okay, it's actually not that bad.
Jon @wholeparent:But but this conversation, really like this, is a lot of what I'm trying to talk about in the book and and it's a lot of like the hey, it's modeling, it's also learning from mistakes and how we view mistakes and how we can readjust the way that we view mistakes. So so kind of let's let's kind of go, even, let's take a step back and ask the question so why doesn't punishment work? Because I think that this is where a lot of parents they see punishment seeming to work and they go okay, well then, this is all that works. And I think that what I've tried to do, what you've tried to do, is say, actually it doesn't work and why? Why doesn't it work? What's?
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:what's the point? I'll say too, we have decades and decades of research that show that punishment is actually doesn't lead to that great of outcome. So we, we kind of know this, but let's get into this question. I think you asked a really important question and I really want to come back to something you said a few minutes ago, after I answered this question about fears, because one of the big things I feel like has not been talked about and I think it's fundamental. I've talked about it quite a bit, but it doesn't really get a lot of airtime on podcasts. People don't actually want to talk about it much is that? Um, fear-based parenting is what often leads us to punishment and leads us to the kinds of parenting moments that are totally unproductive. So I'm glad you brought that up and I'd love to come back to it. The reason that punishment doesn't work is because let's talk about what does work first and that is that the way that children. So let's take one more step back, if you don't mind.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:To me what why, even punish or why discipline or why give like? Why discipline at all? Why For me? Why even punish or why discipline or why discipline at all? Why For me? And when I talk to thousands and thousands of parents over the years, typically what I arrive to is and I have three children who are now older, my kids are 17 and up. So I'm kind of on the other side of all of the years of doing discipline and how it comes out.
Jon @wholeparent:And you have three boys, too, right, and how it comes out. And you have three boys, I have three boys, so I have three boys. They're the best.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:I mean, if I had had three girls, I would say the same thing. They're just kids are amazing and hard, hard, hard. And all of mine are very different, which is again why you'll very rarely see me be super prescriptive, Like I typically don't come in with, you know, except things that are based on the brain and the nervous system and relationships. That I know is typically. But we have to really know our kid and know that moment and really tune into what's happening in the moment in ourselves and in our kids. But why discipline at all? Well, the point and purpose to me of discipline is that we get that children become self-disciplined so that, without us looking, without us saying anything, without us doing anything, they are making good decisions for themselves and for the world out in the world as they develop. Now, the way that we get them there is number one, something that is not at all within our control, and that is development. As the brain develops, as development unfolds, they reach levels of maturity that allow them to control impulses, to pause before action, to consider other people's feelings, to consider what might happen if I do this, what might happen if I don't do this, and these are all prefrontal cortex capacities that aren't fully developed until the late 20s. So part of what we're talking about here in terms of discipline and I often tell parents this even if you don't do anything, just development unfolding will help your kid become a more disciplined, good human being. So that's number one. And then number two what does work, besides waiting for development, is giving our children repeated experiences that help them get the reps. Just like when I lift weights and I do reps, that muscle gets stronger when they have repeated experiences. This is how the brain fires and wires. So the repeated experiences they have is what wires their brains.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:So when we talk about discipline, I would like I could throw a punishment out there and my kid might feel bad, or they might. You know, I might be forcing them to make a retribution that's totally meaningless. Or, you know, maybe I spank or maybe I um, I threatened something, or maybe I take something away, or whatever I do in the name of punishment will often make them feel like bad, but often what they actually feel is that I'm unfair, and I mean so. It actually pulls attention away from the feelings that we want them to have and the skills that they want to build, and I can certainly give a specific example around that from my own parenting. But I think that, um, you know, oftentimes if we're like, go to your room, you can't have your play date today because you clearly can't be with people Like, so I'm just throwing out a punishment.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:It's the first thing I think of Um, so I throw it out there. My kid goes in his room and he starts thinking about how mean I am to do this to him and it was actually his brother's fault and I didn't even get the whole story and I actually love his brother more than him. So all of his cognitive, attentional, emotional resources are to thinking about how it's everybody else's fault and he's taking zero accountability.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:So, it's actually counterproductive, and I would say that 80% of what we do in the name of discipline is counterproductive because we're not holding in mind that really, what we're trying to do is give them an experience to practice building a skill or to learn that skill, or to learn the capacity to think about others, or whatever. It might not be a specific skill, but an actual experience that is firing and wiring. And I think I'll say one more thing and then I'll pause, because I could talk for six hours straight on this.
Jon @wholeparent:I'm sure we would all be the wiser for it.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:One of the big questions I really try to ask myself. And, by the way, parents, I want to give you permission to not respond to the behavior in that moment. You don't. You know, we've all been told you have to respond in the moment or it won't be effective. That's true of dogs, but it's not even true of two-year-olds. I want to give you permission to say I want to think about how I want to respond to this. Or to say you know what, let's all go take a break. I'm going to let's come back in five minutes. We're going to talk about this. Or, after your two-year-old has had a nap and a snack, you can go back and tell the story. Let's tell the story of how you threw your shoe at mommy's face earlier, whatever it is like. Come back to it responding. And is the way I'm handling this moment going to move my child closer to doing it better the next time? And if the answer is no, it's not effective discipline.
Jon @wholeparent:Right, right, and I think I think that that's I mean, that's such a key point and that's kind of gets to the quote that I was going to read from you guys. And I don't know, it's interesting when I read your books that you've co-authored with others. There are now moments where I can see the Tina thread shining through.
Jon @wholeparent:But there are often moments where I'm like, oh man, I don't know who, really, I don't know which one of you said this, and so I think that's so cool that you guys can author books that way. I would really struggle to do that, because I would be like oh, I got to say it my way.
Jon @wholeparent:That's also why the editing process has been difficult. But yeah, so I think that what you said is I mean so many good nuggets in there. But ultimately we're working against their long-term development when we're using punitive actions. And I think that for me and I have kids on the younger end my oldest is 7, not 17. You said that your youngest is 17, right, so my oldest is 7.
Jon @wholeparent:So when I look at and my three kids are incredibly different too and I actually think probably if parents paid really really close attention to parenting which is really really hard in an age where everybody most parents have one or two jobs, most parents are to some extent addicted to their phone, most parents like and this is not like to shame any parent like that's just life, I think it's really hard to be super attentive, but I think if we were, we would realize that all of our kids are so different from one another. So I appreciate that you said that, but in my case, what works for one of my kids? I probably could have utilized punishment in a way that felt effective for my three-year-old, but because I had my seven-year-old first, first, and it was never going to work for him I was, so I guess the word is blessed that like I, it just never.
Jon @wholeparent:And then I also came out of the, out of foster care training.
Jon @wholeparent:So so in in foster care training they tell you like this is not going to work.
Jon @wholeparent:Which is why I think it's so interesting that so many of us just have not deconstructed the idea that punishment is the way that we correct behavior. Because all of the experts and not like the you know random guy who says which I know how ironic it is that I'm saying this but not the random guy who says, then the people who are in the trenches in large-scale academics and large-scale institutional spaces like foster care, they know and they've known, and I think that it's the average parent, we're the last ones to catch up often. So, yeah, all this to say it's really challenging for all of us, it's very challenging for every parent. And you know, I think I think that the decision to go punishment free is a good one that most parents should take and in fact, all I think all, all parents should take, which is a pretty audacious claim. You know, in research you're never supposed to say all but like, yeah, I think all parents should take this, this approach, if, if for no other perspective than to change the mindset around it, to be more teaching.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:So, john, let's talk about consequences then, because when we, when you say no punishment, I'm thinking your listeners are saying well, does that mean I never give a?
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:I never like, what do I do Like? So you know I used to do. I don't do it very much anymore. Occasionally I still do, but a lot of my clinical practice, besides doing therapy with kids and teens, was doing parenting consults. So parents would come in for 75 to 90 minutes. They'd come in with their questions and we'd wrestle with stuff and what most parents when they would walk in my office would say we know what we don't want to do, but we don't know what we don't know what to do.
Jon @wholeparent:I would love to hear how do you think about consequences? What do you tell parents about consequences?
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:or what do they do in the moment. So yeah, so it's the longest chapter in the book. I realized that in my last read through. Was that it's so nuanced?
Jon @wholeparent:no, it's so nuanced and so so it's the longest chapter in the book. And the reason that it's longest chapter chapter in the book is because, number we have to deconstruct the idea that all punishment is consequences. I guess all punishment is consequences, but not all consequences is punishment. That's beautifully said, number one, and you can correct me if I'm wrong at this point. I don't know if I can change it in the book, but we'll find out. Copy editing. I say that, yeah, copy editing, I still have a shot, you know.
Jon @wholeparent:I say that logical consequences are a great option if natural consequences are either too extreme and become punitive, or are have have zero effect. And so my hierarchy for consequences is the idea that parents should do something in the moment. Almost never should you do anything other than maybe shut your mouth and walk away, unless imminent harm is going to come to someone, in which case you hold the boundary, you take away the you know chainsaw that your kid is playing with, and then yeah, and then you come back to the situation right right, well, right, and, and actually you know, that's what's so interesting to me and this is like where I get into the gentle parenting like man I this is.
Jon @wholeparent:This is why it's there's so much nuance. I know parents who are like yeah, I went punishment free. But these parents are still very have not done any work around how brutal their own childhoods were, and so they go. I went punishment free. Now I just use natural consequences. And I'm like oh, can you give me an example? And they're like well, my daughter forgot to bring water on our walk. And I'm like okay, so how was the natural consequence? Like she got thirsty and you had to walk back to the car. It's like no, no, we weren't going to go back. She was just super dehydrated by the time we got back to the car after 10 miles and I actually had to carry her back the last mile because she had passed out. And I'm like not a natural consequence? I mean, I guess a natural consequence, but highly punitive at that point.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:Yeah.
Jon @wholeparent:Right. So I would say, at the best we allow our children to face the consequences of their own actions. When those are proportional, then and then I have a whole way, a whole acronym for how we do logical consequences. Then the next step is to ask are consequences warranted? Am I being reasonable in this moment? Most of the time that we're disciplining, historically we're not being reasonable, like parents get triggered and then we do kind of our worst parenting is.
Jon @wholeparent:Is the consequence associated right to the actual action that's been taken by the child? Is the consequence even related, in other words, to what they're doing? Or am I just saying give me your iPad for a week, like that prop? Then that just is going to lead to mom's a jerk, dad's a jerk, and then is it proportional? And so I think, if we can handle those things, once the natural consequences potentially fail like, for example, your kid doesn't clean up their mess and the natural consequences it's messy. Well, the kid might not care, like I just don't care that it's messy, not a good natural consequence if there's no impact. So then we ask okay, well, is a consequence warranted? Maybe Cleaning up the room can be a consequence. Am I being reasonable If I'm feeling pretty solid and in my prefrontal cortex and not reactive, be afraid or experience either physical, mental, emotional or relational pain, which I think basically all punishment does.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:I think you know one of the ways I like to think about all of this is the idea that you know, obviously our child's safety is first, and I mean actual safety like physical safety, I don't you know, I don. I mean actual safety like physical safety, I don't you know. I don't mean that they don't like it, I mean like they're going to get, they're going to burn their hand on the stove whatever they're going to run into the street.
Jon @wholeparent:So their physical safety is the very front burner.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:The next front burner is the relationship, and any particular behavior is back burner. Um, or to say it this way, to say it a different way, front burner is relationship, back burner is behavior. Unless it's a life-threatening one, then that's a first. But I think before we even, like, get to the consequences thing, we have to remember that if the whole point and purpose is to teach and build skills so they become self-disciplined, then they have to be in a state in their nervous system in which they can learn. So that's why, in you know, in our no drama discipline approach, we really talk about the idea that the brain is either in a reactive state where it can't learn this is what tantrums look like, this is what disrespectful, you know backtalk looks like slamming door, like all of the stuff that our kids do often when they're reactive in the moment, or that we do when we're reactive in the moment. So either the brain's in a reactive state or it's in a receptive state in which it's ready to.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:So the first step is is my child ready to learn and am I ready to teach? If the answer is no to either of those questions, it's not the right time. And so, in the name of discipline and by that I mean teaching and skill building the first thing we have to do is get our kid receptive, and the way we do that is through connection, relationship, regulation, time, space, nurture, whatever it takes. And the biggest pushback I get on that is well. So you're going to hug them and you're going to be like I can see you're having such a hard time right now. Buddy, I'm right here with you and you're reinforcing bad behavior. And I say no, I'm not reinforcing bad behavior. I'm giving their brain a rep of going from a dysregulated state back into a regulated state so that they can do that for themselves, which is number one for self-discipline. And then, once they're receptive, then I'm going to ask the discipline questions which we have in no drama.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:Discipline is what is it? You know, what was what's? Let's chase the why like what's the why behind this behavior? What was really happening there?
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:And then the second thing is what is it I want my child to learn or do differently? And then the third question is how do I effectively support having giving them an experience to help them do that? So it's that framework. Before I ever think about consequences, I'm a big fan of natural consequences. Even experts who go on national television shows get this wrong. So let's be really clear. Natural consequences are the things that happen without you doing anything. So your child leaves their bat on the baseball field. You go back an hour later when your kid remembers that the bat's gone. That's a natural consequence. You didn't call someone and say, hey, go, steal my kid's bat to teach them a lesson, you know whatever.
Jon @wholeparent:Logical, logical consequence steal my kid's bat to teach them a lesson you know whatever.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:When a natural consequence happens, we actually often pile on the lecture at that point and that actually becomes punitive because we're making them feel worse. Instead, what's more effective is to be like you loved that bat. That's so disappointing, like we can actually authentically feel with our child with empathy about that, and then we can do some problem solving, say, you know, what do you think we could do? Like I know you need a new bat, what should we do? How do you think we should handle this? You know, and you kind of problem solve with your child, giving them reps, using their prefrontal cortex to be part of the problem solving. If it's not, and then a logical consequence is something that makes sense, connected to the thing that it is to help them learn to do better the next time. So, um, it's funny, like lots of times, people like when we talk about like, oh, I don't use consequences, I only have reflective dialogues. I'll tell you I won't give the specifics to protect my child's privacy, but about three weeks ago one of my kids, um, was dishonest about something and had violated, uh, um, uh, a limit that we had agreed upon. And so we sat down and I said you know, I know, you know that's not okay. So what happened? Tell me about this.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:And we had a conversation and then I said hey, I want to talk to dad about this, and then let's all talk together about how we want to handle this going forward, because this isn't okay and I don't want to see this again. So we need to come up with a different plan together. And so why don't you think about that too? So then we came back together the next day and we had like a 30 minute conversation. It was really sweet. My son said I know I've broken trust. And I said you have not broken trust. You have made so many trust deposits, you made a withdrawal from the thing and you can easily make more deposits, you know. And so there's, it's all restoration.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:We can refill that, but at the end of that of the conversation he smirked and I said what?
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:And he said I'm just not going to do that again so I don't have to have this kind of a conversation again. So even the dialogue feel like our kids don't want to do that, they don't want to sit and wrestle, and they feel our disappointment. That is a consequence. So I think anybody who says I'm I don't do any consequences Well, even the look on your face or the conversation you have with your child can be seen as a consequence.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:It's really. I think we just need to be less rigid around, you know, saying it's this or it's not this or whatever. We have to be really nuanced, and so the whole point and purpose, though, of if, how and why and when we use consequences, should be intentional and thoughtful, and it should be in service of giving them an experience that helps them move toward being able to do it better the next time not, and I think I think right so so I'm gonna read the quote, because you just said it and you said it so beautifully and no drama discipline that I have to read it please, I haven't all right, so here's okay.
Jon @wholeparent:So, um, it comes from the uh 20 discipline mistakes, even great parents make, and this is the quote I've made.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:I've made on my Instagram account. I actually maybe this week, maybe this week. Yeah, exactly, maybe, maybe today. Um, on my Instagram account I actually like went through I did mistake Mondays and there was a period of time where I kind of went through one every Monday and I was like I could do this series forever because we make lots of mistakes every.
Jon @wholeparent:Monday and I was like I could do this series forever because we make lots of mistakes, I, you know. And, man, like I feel like this is, this is a moment. I mean, let me read this because I feel like this is a moment. Okay. So it says you're, um, it's from this, uh, mistake one number one. It says and this is the text behind it says the goal of discipline is not to make sure that each infraction is immediately met with a consequence. The real goal of discipline is to teach our children how to live well in the world, and I think that that is that statement alone. I think I remember reading that the first time and going, oh, and that might've been I, I it's hard to say like there there's like a moment of like, oh, eureka, this is the work I need to do. But that was the moment where I went. I agree so much with this, but how did I not?
Jon @wholeparent:know, this Like what, I don't even like. What year did no drama discipline come out Like 2015?
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:or something. So it's almost 10 years old, okay.
Jon @wholeparent:So, so, almost 10 years old, I I probably read that quote in 2020. So, five years after it had come out, I read it and I went how was this not? And maybe it was national dialogue, but how was this not never presented to me? Not to mention whole brain, whole brain child's, what? 2012. So like that's, so that's another three years before that. So, like how, how is this just not part of the dialogue? And and I think that that is really really important and and I think part of the reason why it's not part of the dialogue and this is kind of the point that you just made I think the reason why my account blew up in the way that it did was not that I was saying anything new.
Jon @wholeparent:I think three things. One, I think the way in which I communicate is pretty approachable, which I think is good, right, that's just a good thing to be, and I think the more that we can continue to be approachable with conversations like the one that we're having, I think the more this dialogue can be furthered. Second thing is that I was a guy saying it, which I think, and I wasn't a guy with a, with a, with an MD or a PhD behind my name saying it, so I was just a dad saying it. I think that that's important, but I think number three is that I own all of the mistakes, so that's the thing that you know. We were chatting before we even started and I'm not going to name names.
Jon @wholeparent:But one of the struggles that I think that we see on social media especially, but even in parenting books that are published, even in podcasts, is that all of the people who are a little bit insecure in their expertise and they're like I'm talking about parenting, but I'm not always perfect.
Jon @wholeparent:You didn't want to see me in Target yesterday. They don't say that, though They'll just continue to kind of further this. Look at all these amazing fun activities that I did over the Easter weekend with my kids and it's like, yeah, but what about the moment at the end of Easter where your kid didn't want to go to bed because you've been completely out of routine and you were at somebody's house and you didn't get home in time for bath time and so all of the neural pathways associated with melatonin released didn't fire. So then your kids jumping off the walls and oh, by the way, they just had 14 chocolate eggs on the way home and they probably needed to wash them up, but you didn't really. And so, like they're like feeling sticky, and then, like right before they fall asleep, they're like I'm sticky and you're just gonna sleep like.
Jon @wholeparent:You didn't talk about that, though, and so, because you didn't, you feel like and this is where I, we can kind of return as a punishment for your parenting but, like, because none of us are owning that and I think you do a good job of that, I try and do a good job of that. I think eliza does a good job of that. I know that my friend eli, who's does it she's based parenting does a good job of this. Like, all of us are trying to forward this idea, because when you don't talk about that, then it feels unattainable, and so that's. I think the question is, we've talked about consequences, okay, how, this is a better alternative to punishment, but really, what do we do? Like, when we're not going to be a perfect parent all the time? How do we deal with that? Because I think that's the thing where people go. I can't become a punishment for parenting, because I I have to have this in my back pocket, because I'm afraid that I'm going to have no tools, and what do I do if I fall short?
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:I think I think again you came back to that the F word fear, uh, fear-based parenting, and I will say that when I reflect after I've been the parent, I hope not to be, which happens all the time and I will say has happened less and less and less over time as I've practiced this approach to parenting and it's become more wired in my brain to be more automatic.
Jon @wholeparent:And yeah, you, Tina, would you say that you've built some neural pathways around the way that you like to?
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:talk about it all the time. I'm always setting my intention right, so it's like it's. I get all those reps all the time in terms of my lens. But also I will say it's a lot easier not to yell as kids get older, because it's easier in many, many ways. They're, you know they're not having meltdown, you know they go, they say I'm going to bed at eight, 30 and you don't see them, but you know they're up, you know talking to their friends or you know whatever. So I think you don't have the trenches kind of thing.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:It's not to say that teenagers are easier, although I will say, um, I felt like age four was the hardest for all three of my kids and I have 24, 21 and 17 year old kids now. So those of you with four-year-olds hanging there, fear-based parenting. So almost all when I reflect, almost always my my moments when I'm not the parent I want to be and I go against what I believe in terms of this lens that we've been talking about, are always rooted in fear for me, and I think what happens is, you know, and there's a lot of fear-based parenting that gets stoked on social media too, like stuff like let your kids sleep in bed with you. They'll never sleep on their own. Or maybe your pediatrician tells you that that's not true. There's no.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:If this, then this forever for every kid. That's just not the way it works, and I think you know, like I. I love to tell a story about a time my my kid he was probably seven or eight at the time and I had offered to pick him up after school and take him to the Sticky Theater. It's not actually called that, but it's a discount theater, so it's really. It was gross inside.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:So I was like hey, I'm going to pick you up after school and he was like, really that's so fun, Like he was super excited, grateful, just the response I wanted from him. And then he says can I get popcorn? And I said, no, we're not getting popcorn today. We've already had too much junk food. I'll bring a snack. And when I pick you up and he, he pouted. You know arms folded, you know pouting.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:And so what, what happens immediately for me is it moves me from like it's now, that's not what I expected, it's not what I hoped for, but it immediately moves me to a fear-based place that my kid is entitled, he's spoiled, he's a brat, he doesn't understand the help, how much privilege he has. You know all of these things. And so that leads me to want to be like I'm not taking you to the movies, which is totally punitive, you know. It makes me my first response, even knowing everything that I know and practicing, is to say guess what? I am in charge here, I'm in control of you and I'm going to take this away from you. That's my first instinct is to say, fine, we're not going to the theaters. If you're going to pout, you don't get to go. But what I did instead in that moment, which is it's much more helpful because I have tons and tons of terrible parenting moments. Throwing, like after playing Yahtzee with my boys, I threw the dice across the room, yelled at them because they were fighting and I lost my mind. Um, so I have lots and lots of parenting fails. But in this moment I first regulated myself and then I said to him um, something just happened. When I said go to the movies, you got so excited. When I said no popcorn, something happened, what happened? So I start with curiosity and he says I'm disappointed. I love movie popcorn. I don't get it very often and I'm just, I really wanted it. And so I say, yeah, sometimes when we want something and we don't get it, that can feel really disappointing. Um, so what? I did so and and and I said now we're not getting popcorn, but we can still go to the movies, Would you still like to go? So I'm still holding my boundary of no popcorns. I'm not saying fine, you can have popcorn. So that's where I'm emotionally responsive, connected, gentle, and I'm using air quotes when I say that while holding the boundary.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:And what happens then afterwards? Then is after that moment, I say to myself behavior is communication. Him pouting, told me something. His behavior there just said, hey, mom, you know those those skills about being grateful and understanding, privilege and all those things, I don't have those yet.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:So in my mind I'm like, OK, my kid's behavior just added something to my list of. Instead of doing something to my kid punitive, I'm taking the movie away. What do I need to do for my child to help him have repeated experiences, to build his brain, to have that skill? And so then I think, okay, what kind of repeated experiences? Okay, we can have a gratitude practice that we can start at dinner. We haven't done that for a while, so we're going to do that and we're going to actually talk about, maybe, how people in the world live. Um, and I also, though in that moment, taught him. So if discipline is all about teaching, I also taught him. Him he can have more than one emotion at once he can feel excited about, and disappointed about the popcorn, but I think, let's say I had screamed at him, taken away the movies.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:Um, you know, told him he was a spoiled brat. What I need to do in that moment after that is to start with curiosity with myself, because shame spiral just actually makes me more likely to be reactive again the next time. Shame actually primes our nervous system to be more reactive. So instead I go to curiosity. I really want to be gentle with myself and say okay, tina, that was not ideal. What got in the way? This is the question. I literally asked myself what got in the way of you being the parent? You would have wanted to be in that moment and I would say to my kid oh, I wish I hadn't done that. Um, can I have a do over, right? And then I might say to myself you know what? I acted that way because I haven't had anything to eat all day, I haven't peed by myself in three years and I'm exhausted.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:Or I might say, when my kid does that it reminds me of my dad who really wounded me you know, or I'm pissed at my husband, or whatever it is, but it begins to then create a space for me to say what is it that I need so that I'm ready? To stay receptive and get my kid receptive.
Jon @wholeparent:Man, I love, I love that so much. Can I give you a? Can I give you a quote, that's in the book.
Jon @wholeparent:So, so, um, I talk about and I say in those moments when we fall short of our best, perfect standard for parenting for ourselves, in the same way that punishment is ineffective as a way of teaching our children, punishment is ineffective in the way of teaching ourselves. So, in the same way that shame does not teach your children to not do that thing again, shame will not teach you to not do that thing again. Beating yourself up is no, no better, no more effective than beating up your kid, and it actually the research shows that actually makes us more likely to do it again.
Jon @wholeparent:Yeah, of course, and not only that. Yeah, I would say it's. It's like it's almost the worst thing you can do, which I know sounds like really, you know, hyperbolic, but like when you beat yourself up, you're more likely to do it again. That's first because now you have all of those shame associations and now the next time your kid does it, you're going to be even more reactive, because you've re, you know, those neural pathways from your childhood around shame, around being ungrateful. Now you've just you've just fired those again, so like they got deeper. So that's that's number one.
Jon @wholeparent:Number two you also model to your kid that when you do a thing that you don't like, that this is how you effectively cope is by, as my therapist says, beating the shit out of yourself, so like and my dad did that like when he was the parent that he didn't want to be like. I watched him just get down on himself about it and so like. That's what I do. And guess what my seven-year-old does when he doesn't hold up to the perfect standard? Like so much self-shame, so like. I think that's the the second piece, and then the third piece is that shame then leads to the well, I'm no good and there's no real reason that I should be trying anyway, and I think that that's the thing about saying no drama, discipline, saying punishment-free parenting, like however you want to phrase that. I think ultimately, at the core, what we have to understand is that we're probably not going to be completely punishment free for our whole lives, although by setting that intention, trying hard, we're going to build the neural pathways that we might be able to be.
Jon @wholeparent:And I think you know I'll say one kind of one more thing to kind of wrap us, because I know we're kind of coming to the end here of our time. You said, you know, parenting teenagers isn't any easier, and then you kind of said, well, actually, I think four years old is the hardest. I think that's really telling because I think we say this culturally like, well, each stage is difficult. But I actually and this is coming from a person who, who has only helped people who are parenting teenagers, has not parents of teenagers themselves parenting teenagers has not parents of teenagers themselves I actually don't necessarily agree that teenagers aren't easier when we parent effectively when they're young. I actually think parenting without punishment is maybe the harder way to parent a two-year-old, four-year-old, seven-year-old meaning you don't get the compliance as quickly, as easily. Um, as you have to do much more work, self-work, in those early years it's harder.
Jon @wholeparent:But when they're 10, 14, 17, especially 24, 34, now I think you've set yourself up, you're doing, you're playing the long game the whole time, instead of having to like, rework and redo and oh well, I did this punishment and compliance thing and you never learned how to make decisions. And now I have to deal with a 16 year old who never learned how to make decisions. I think that's why parents say, oh, each age is like equally hard. Well yeah, because each age comes with challenges. But if you're training those challenges at six, they're not going to be the same challenges at 16.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:That's exactly right and I will say, you know I've loved my boys teenage years and you know the stakes are higher, the fears are bigger.
Jon @wholeparent:Yes.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:But I will say my kids, you know sibling conflict. My kids fought a lot when they were little, lot when they were little. When my kids became like 16, 13 and 10, really the last seven years there's been almost zero sibling conflict between them. Not that they don't say shitty things to each other whatever, but we don't.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:We have not dealt with that because we did so much work around that when they were little. And I will say you know, the teenage years can be really challenging, but this is what I have to come back to control in just a second. On this, I have loved the teenage years and you know, we're certainly trying to figure out the dance differently and I will say it, for me and my family and my kids, the teenage years have been vastly easier than early years, because I feel like we've been doing, we've been building the brain, We've been working on a whole brain. No drama, discipline, yes, Brain power, showing up, approach to parenting. But here's where where I think that um and this is not to say that this is true for everybody, because there are some kids who are neurodiverse and there are some parents who are neurodiverse and there are families where trauma has happened and there are families where um there are um, really significant stressors and um, and there are health issues and there are mental health issues and things.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:So this is not at all to like. You know, families are different. We want to really honor that. But I will say that where I think the things can really go sideways during the adolescent years, more so than the early childhood years, but still in the early childhood years is around the idea of control. And one of the things I say to parents is, if you are relying on punishment, threat and control to regulate your child's behavior, you will always lose eventually.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:Because when you say to your 15 year old and my, my boys, by the time they were four. I'm five, four and my boys are all six feet ish by the time they were 14, they were way taller than me. If I said to my 14 or 15 year old, you're not going out this weekend? If they said, yes, I am, my only options are to try to physically restrain them, which would be ridiculous, or to call law enforcement. So if I'm in a real and I'm not going to, I'm not going to do, I'm not going to do that.
Jon @wholeparent:Right Not not to prove a point. Right, not not if not. If you're like personal safety Also, that would communicate to my kids.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:I'm actually not in control, I have to rely on somebody else. I remember one time we were at a restaurant and one of my boys was being a little wild and I remember at one point I said, oh, here comes the man, here comes the waiter. And my kid immediately went like this and I was like, wow, that really worked. But that was one of the worst things I could have said there, because what I just said to my kid is I'm relying on somebody else to manage you. I can't do that, I'm totally ineffective to do that, and we're going to behave because we're afraid or we're going to rely on control.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:So I realized that was a terrible parent thing to do, relying on power and control. And that's especially problematic if you have girls, because I also in my former social work past was a domestic violence victim advocate and I will say power and control is actually what leads to all kinds of really dangerous things in relationships down the road. So we don't want to model that anyway. But when we're talking for our boys as well not only girls, but I think when we're relying on power and control and threat based parenting, we will always lose. And so when you don't do that when they're young, when they get to be teenagers, you're actually not trying to control them, and that's one of the things, developmentally, that they push most against. So if you're in collaborative conversation and you're saying this is an issue we need to solve together, you still have firm boundaries and limits.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:But one of my and this is like I know you love to give like really practical hat kinds of things One of my favorite things to do is starting when they're little, but especially in the teenage years is to it's something happens, is to say to them I know you know the lecture I really want to give you right now. So you give it to me. Tell me what I would say right now.
Jon @wholeparent:And they literally, and I'm like, oh my God, they've been listening to me Like I feel so much better.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:Um, and then they're saying it themselves. They're hearing themselves say it it's a much better, like they say, if you want to learn something.
Jon @wholeparent:I know, yeah, I think, no, I think it's so. So I call this role reversal and it's one of my, it's one of my hacks at the end of the book and, um, yeah, I think you like listed three of my hacks actually just now as you went through, but, but, but, but one of them I call role reversal and and I actually the way that I frame it is not only like in order to learn something, you really have to teach it. How many times, tina, when you've had them do that, do they say something that you wouldn't have said, right? Like they actually say what they need to hear, not what you necessarily?
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:would have said More than that. They actually will be more responsible than what I would have called for, you know, or they might say so, because usually the follow-up question is okay. So what do we need to do to make sure this doesn't happen again, or how are we going to handle this the next time?
Jon @wholeparent:And and usually what they come up with is far better than what I would- Far more and often far more restrictive, like the funny thing that I do with my seven. I do this my seven year old and it's so funny that, like I'll be like OK, so we're really having, we're struggling to hold boundaries around the iPad. Like we're really how can we and this is the example that I use in the book for collaborative discipline is like what do you need for me to get off the iPad when it's time to get off? And he's like you know, I think I need to take a break from it for for a little while. And I'm like wow, okay, say more, okay. And he's like yeah, I think, like maybe like two months.
Jon @wholeparent:And I'm like can we start with like a week and then see how you feel and parent and everyone like man, it's so funny that, like when you do this work and you actually do it this way, it seems unbelievable to the parents that, like are not doing it this way, because, like, every parent just rolled their eyes when I said that, because they're like oh my, my kid would have they're always trying to get away with something.
Jon @wholeparent:He would have said, like, take it away for an hour and then like, oh, then no. Like when, when they actually understand that every boundary that you put in place, every and and in your movie theater example, right, I think there is a moment to hold that boundary. There also is a moment to say like, yeah, you know what, why don't we get that popcorn? Let's just not have it today, let's just like put it in a plastic bag. You really like movie theater popcorn. We're not going to go back for a couple of weeks. Like that flexibility to is being like, hey, I, I, I care about the harm, I don't care about the control. And I think those moments like actually become and so that flexibility, even within the boundaries, to say like, yeah, we're still going to hold the boundary, but but maybe we can hold it in a different way. Those moments when your kid truly believes that you're on their team, like the discipline gets easy. Because, like there's never been a time.
Jon @wholeparent:So my son's sick right now. He's really struggling taking his amoxicillin. He has sensory stuff. It makes his stomach hurt, but he's got to take it. Like did I have a 45 minute conversation with a seven year old about antibiotic resistant bacteria and the threat that it causes to humanity as a whole. And he's like this kid just like was, like it's so hard I'll do it for human Like but like he's like I feel better so I don't take it right. It makes sense, but like people are like that's crazy. Why would you try and explain that to us?
Jon @wholeparent:I don't know, it's like because he asked I think john so I think that that's so important, one of the key things that I think is is underlying our whole conversation.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:That I haven't yet said is the idea of assuming that we are the leader like so there? So I think a lot of times when we're like, no, you're not getting the popcorn and you're never having popcorn your entire childhood or whatever it is, that comes from an insecurity about me being in charge.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:If I assume and feel secure that I am in charge, it actually gives me and my kid a sense that I don't have. I actually don't have to be rigid. So I talk about how we don't have to change our minds. I mean, we don't. We can change our minds even after. I mean, I've certainly set boundaries or limits that are ridiculous. Like you can't swim the whole summer or you can't go to grandma's house now, but I'm like I have to go, I have to take you to grandma's house because I have a dentist appointment. So we lay these boundaries down. But if I am secure that I'm in charge and that I'm the leader, then I can easily say you know what? And there's a huge. I can say you know what? You made a really good point. I'm going to change my mind Now. I will say two caveats to that. One is there's a huge difference between saying fine, you can have the popcorn.
Jon @wholeparent:Yes, yes, yes, yes yes.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:I'm going to change my mind because I'm still in charge, and I'm changing my mind versus I'm giving into you, and it's a huge difference because it teaches our kids those repeated experiences. If I whine and yell, I'm going to get what I want. We don't want them to do that.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:But the other piece is that right you know, I think if we are secure in knowing that we're in charge, it does allow us to be less rigid, and that's another one of the 20 discipline mistakes we talked about in the books. It's not, it doesn't have to, you don't have to be rigid. But the other thing I will say is if you have a kid who's a really good negotiator, so if you do that occasionally, they're like oh well, there's room to argue, there's room to negotiate, you, there's room to negotiate. It's actually an incredibly wonderful skill for the prefrontal cortex to try to do that, because your kid has to think about your mind and what's going to. You know what's going to appeal to you.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:And they're like, but we could have more time together. And they're like, oh, that's going to appeal to mom. You know, one of the things I had one kid in particular who would just push and push, and push until I would then lose it, and then I would just you know. So what I learned with that one, with that kid, is once I said, yes, we can have one more book, or sure, we can, I'll change my mind about that. Once I said, but I'm not changing my mind, then I wouldn't change my mind. And so then in the future, the next time I would say we're not doing that and I'm not changing my mind, then it would stop.
Jon @wholeparent:Then we wouldn't have the constant pushing and negotiating, which was really important. I've yeah, I've definitely gotten there, so, so I definitely have one who's a pusher like that.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:Unfortunately, he's my, he's my two year old, so it's my youngest too.
Jon @wholeparent:So but but think there is. I definitely have gotten to the point of saying, like you know, I'm sorry we can't do that, and and even reflecting back because he's too like you want mom right now mom's not here Like at least acknowledging right, I'm not going to change my mind Even in saying that you're saying I hear you. Not going to change my mind even in saying that you're saying I hear you, and that, I think, is another really important aspect that kids, kids have to feel seen, heard and valued before they care about what your discipline is otherwise you're just the tyrant, and I love that.
Jon @wholeparent:You said that it's it's an insecurity.
Jon @wholeparent:I think that that's very, very accurate and I think that that for so many, especially men who I talk to, it's like man, I don't feel I feel out of control with these kids and because of that, I have to like really lock down and and what's so interesting is that, like anybody who's studied martial arts which I haven't, but I've talked to people who, um, knows that like that, like trying to be the immovable object, is just the way that you are going to get taken down every time by the 5-4 judo expert who's who's half your weight because, like, if you try and be rigid, like you are so unbalanced, and I think that that's the truth is that the moment that I became the parent more often than not that's an Elisa Pressman the moment that I became the parent more often than not, that I wanted to be, was the moment when I realized that I could be flexible and still be, be and still be the parent, and I think that that's in the leader and good leaders do this.
Jon @wholeparent:I mean this is not to get into specific politicians, but like this is one of my measuring sticks for politicians is like how do you like, when you're talking about things, how do you respond to somebody making a great point? Like, do you respond with? Like no, that's actually a really good point, and I haven't considered that, and I definitely will consider that here.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:Here's my response to that off the cuff man that I'm like, I'm like, like, let me follow that woman usually totally, totally, you know not usually the men, but the power of showing up dan and I, which is all about secure attachment, how we cultivate it, knowing that it's one of the best predictors for how well kids turn out on everything they're measured on um is that for me. That's it's. It talks about the four s's and it's my north star, which are safe, seen soothedothed. So at your worst, that's when you most need connection, um and secure and knowing someone's going to show up for you so.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:I think even in those discipline moment, like for me, that also is part of the frame of thinking about. Discipline is am I responding in a way that helps my kid feel safe and seen and soothed and secure, knowing I'm going to keep showing up no matter what, no matter how they behave, et cetera, and um and then um, really I, I can then be flexible. I can then, you know, hold my boundary and say, you know, say what we, what we talk about in several books is the idea that you can say no to a behavior while saying yes to your child and their experience of the behavior we said that you know, many, many years ago.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:And Aliza Pressman has a beautiful way of saying it. She says all behaviors are not welcome, but all feelings are welcome. So that's the kind of thing where I can say I'm not changing my mind about the popcorn, but if you need to be sad about that, it's okay, I'm right here with you while you're feeling sad about the popcorn, right Like yeah, I say to, I say to my kids you can be as mad at me as you want to be.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:I can handle your big feelings and I trust that you can handle your big feelings of disappointment or sadness or unfairness that your brother gets to stay up later than you. I trust that you can handle those big feelings. I'm not going to overprotect you from those feelings and experiences, knowing that the way we become resilient is by practicing dealing with difficult experiences and feelings and those kinds of things.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:Yeah, I kind of have this formula I made up that's oversimplified, but the idea is you know, adversity minus connection or support is what leads to fragility and adversity plus.
Jon @wholeparent:support and connection leads to resilience, but not too much support and not bubble wrapping right.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:That's a different whole thing.
Jon @wholeparent:Yeah, that's similar to the Harvard school Ruler the different types of. Yeah, it's not ruler, it's the different types of traumas. Right, the ruler is the.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:Yale Center for Racial Intelligence right.
Jon @wholeparent:Positive, tolerable, toxic right, and it's the adversity is like. Those are the positive stressors Adversity plus connection is the tolerable or is. Is the is the positive, the too much adversity but still connection. Is the tolerable and then the any adversity with no connection?
Jon @wholeparent:is the toxic and I think so. So I think that that's a perfect way of of kind of well, that's a perfect way of ending. I mean, we could go back and forth. I have so much more to ask you all. We'll have to have you back on soon, um, but yeah, but this has been such a such a helpful conversation. Thank you, tina. Where can we find you? What's the work that you're working on right now? What can we be excited for?
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:I'm excited about the Way of Play, co-authored with Georgie, who is a play therapist, and it's called the Way of Play, out in January 25. And it's about how to play with our children.
Tina Payne Bryson, Ph.D:Lots of parents know, you know we think of play as a way to pass time or just something our kids want to do, and it's really boring and most parents don't like it. So this is like seven strategies for how to play with your kids in ways that build relationship, build skills and make it more fun for you and it's a way of being. That's why it's called the way of play, and you can find me on social media at Tina Payne Bryson and my website's tinabrysoncom.
Jon @wholeparent:Awesome. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. I'm so excited about the work that you're doing and your book, so thank you so much for having me we'll have to have, like uh uh, an exchange of instagram story or something in january 25, when we're both putting out the books.
Jon @wholeparent:Yeah, awesome, thanks for having me guys, I hope that you enjoyed that episode listening to it as much as I enjoyed recording it. Um, I don't think that's possible, but if you did, that's fantastic and if you did, there is absolutely no reason why you shouldn't jump on right now to whatever podcasting platform you're listening to and write a review, if that's available, and definitely rate this podcast five stars, because I'm telling you, this was an epic episode for me. I feel like we talked about so many of the different pieces, so many of the misconceptions that people come away with, so many of the just the basics of healthy parenting, and we even push back, you know, on some of the things that maybe aren't as healthy parenting that come off as healthy parenting on social media. So if you are interested in listening to more episodes, obviously subscribe on whatever podcast platform you're listening to, but you can also go to the link in the description, in the show notes, and you can click on that first link and join the email list.
Jon @wholeparent:Every single Thursday I send out an email. Sometimes it's supplemental to the podcast, things related to what we talked about that week on the podcast, and other times it's just good parenting tips. A couple of weeks ago I sent out one three tips for kids, for parents with picky eaters. I've talked about how to help kids process with trauma. I've talked about so many different things on that email list, and so all you got to do just enter your information there your first name and your email and you'll join the email list and you'll be up to date on not only the amazing stuff that we have going on at whole parent, but just regular good content for you.
Jon @wholeparent:Uh, that's all I have for you today. That was the episode. I feel like I just got to stop talking because this has already been so long. But, guys, thank you so much for letting me do this, for being the people who listen to this on a regular basis so that I get to have these conversations. I cannot tell you how grateful I am that I am able to even do this, and it's because of you, it's because of the people who rate and review, it's because of the people who join the email list. It's because of you, and so thank you so much, and I'll
